Revenge of the Weapons (5.2 and Onwards)

[Enkidoh]

Their tactics when dealing with conquered territories is actually a pretty age old one and is most likely a tactic that has played out in all places of the world (Including our own City States of Eorzea). It essentially breaks down to this - Citizenry of a conquered nation can fall into two camps broadly: Those that are in league with the conquerors, and those that reject the conquerors. For a conquering nation to ensure stability overtime and bring that territory into the fold (which is what Garlemald is seeking to do), they will have to rout any and all objectors while rewarding and uplifting supporters with the long term goal of replacing the resisting population with the supporting population. Garlemald seemed to be doing this in the case of Ala Mhigo, as well as Doma. People who fell in line behind the empire were rewarded broadly (if not left alone). Objectors to the new Garlemald rule were persecuted and treated terribly. This of course created a schism in Ala Mhigo, as people hated the supporters and saw them as traitors. But as the story points out - those supporters of the Garlemald empire did so because they viewed the mad king as so much god awfully worse and did not see any real leader to take his place. For them, The empire was a good thing and would bring stability to their nation. If it meant giving up a few traditions and practices, that was worth the price.

While I dont think the story does the best job at explaining this, the empire isnt super black and white where theyre nothing but evil slavers to all but the garlemald people. Even the reasoning behind Garlemalds expanse was predicated on (or atleast to the public it was) eradicating a practice which destabilizes the environment. It's literally an argument against WMDs as that is what a primal akin to. In any case, what theyre doing isnt anything new, nor are they an exception. the Garlemald people were victims of this same system, so its no suprise they would use it too. And our own citi states are no innocent actors. Theyre self interested actors. We may disagree with Garlemalds views, but those are ideological. Uldah, Limsa, and Gridania also have sketchy history of doing some pretty inhumane crap. Varis even points this out, and it isnt to much a stretch that Eorzea is defending itself from Garlemald out of self interest and preservation and not so much some greater need for the moral good.

TLDR - Its all a bit sketch. Garlemald is not a great empire, but we the player shouldnt be sitting here and being like "Oh theyre pure evil and were oh so good." The conflict is more about a difference in view point rather than morality.

Except what ever moral high-ground the Empire had went completely out the window when it was revealed their whole ideology was built as a lie - Zenos even lampshaded the Empire's hypocrisy about the Primals outright. It was pretty clear even early on that there was more to the Empire's zealous "kill all Primals" directive when they were antagonizing the beastmen who were summoning, and of course, surprise surprise, it turns out they were founded by the very forces teaching the beastmen to summon in the first place! Accordingly every other strong moral arguement they might have had disappeared into the smoke it was.

You are right though that the Garlean people were victims in a way - Emet set up the Empire as 'Solus' specifically for the sole reason to create a Calamity after all, as that was his MO: find a put-upon, oppressed people, possess some lowly but still well-placed individual close to said government, provide miraculous answers to the nation's problems, and then build up the nation carefully as a powerhouse, then proceed to go forth and conquer their neighbours, hammering them under the jackboot into a mighty yet oppressive empire. Then stoke unrest in said povinces, resulting in resistance and further bloodshed, thus allowing the perfect chaotic situtation to eventually result in a Calamity. He cared nothing for the nations he created and abandoned to their fate, they were just tools to be used in the Ascians' greater plan of allowing Zodiark's rebirth. He did this with Garlemald. He did it with the Allag. He was beginning to do so with Eulmore on the First. And "an assorted half-dozen other nations with Imperial ambitions besides", as he so gleefully admitted to the player and the Scions.

So although there is a lot of Garleans who are not evil warmongers, such as the Populares (who genuiely wish for peace), the Empire itself is still nothing but an Ascian tool that has always been fated to fall, it's creator designed it specifically to be so. Black Rose was specifically designed to further this goal (no surprises that in

the original timeline, it all blew up in the Empire's face when Black Rose wiped the Empire itself out as well!.)

And even SE mentioned it from the very beginning of FFXIV's history, 1.0's backstory blurb that used to be on the FFXIV website and in it's manual outright stated that the Empire was beligerent,for not other reason that they were the designated antagonists. Anyone familar with past FF games should have really expected no different.

[Berteaux_Braumegain]

Omega Weapon is a story boss as well

Fair enough!

[Lauront]

I'm hoping 6.0 will handle the empire well. Though part of me worries the msq will largely be us helping the 'good' garlean faction (populares etc) fight the 'warmongering' garleans and there will be as little gray morality as Stormblood. But Shadowbringers was better than I thought it'd be, the lore revelations made the empire less interesting and compelling but made the ascians more so than they had been before, maybe they can manage to pull off the empire plot well. But Zenos being back is not a good omen for me. Really wish he'd stayed dead.

My biggest concern was that they would simply destroy it off screen, but I'm not convinced they're going that route anymore. As to the Populares, and the Optimates, it may end up being just that, but given that there is a civil war unfolding, they do have the opportunity to wipe the board clean, as it were, and avoid it being some comical villain set up. Even something like Gaius ascending to the Garlean throne would help preserve some element of moral greyness to it, because he's got a pretty sketchy history but is nonetheless driven by devotion to his homeland. My ideal conclusion for the Empire will be for it to rein in its ambitions a bit (perhaps offering to lend its might in cleaning up the Primal mess in different ways), maybe cede a few provinces but ultimately remain some manner of monarchy with a few vassal provinces, that can act as a counterweight to Eorzean influence when necessary, much like Hingashi can.

On Zenos, I enjoyed him in Stormblood up to a point, especially with his more "philosophical" takes, e.g. on the nature of the Echo. He interested me as much at that point as Elidibus, who is my favourite of the antagonists. The issue is that the lore around him isn't really explained well in game, and in ShB he's just come across as a dark Mary Sue, showing virtually no real reaction to the rather astonishing new facets of the Resonance. It also looks to me like he's just a plot device in a sense - the Ascians aim to do much more than just revive Zodiark, so they want to first go ahead with all the Rejoinings, meaning we may never see him in the story unless they were to succeed at that, but Zenos is the sort who'll summon him earlier just so he can have a go at gorging on his power, so they can bring him in sooner. I think there's other, better ways they could have gone about it, but for now the best I can hope for is that they improve on his character portrayal.

I'm still waiting to see how they handle the Hydaelyn/Zodiark thing. Although the Ascian perspective is one I find sensible given what they are, and the sort of perspective I'd enjoy taking up in the context of a video game, if it just ends up being a case of tempering gone wrong, so that all their motivations reduce to that, like the usual tempering, I have to confess I'd find that a bit lame. I really want to see if we're going to have some reason to keep both the Primals around and whether it's more complex than Hydaelyn good, Zodiark bad - if it is just that, it'd suck IMO.

The weapon on paper is very pragmatic. It cant be effectively defended against, covers a wide area at low cost, easy to deploy (relatively) with (supposedly) low risk to the users, and was ultra effective and psychologically horrifying.

Problem ends up that yeah, it really is that horrifying and uncontrollable. Real world reference, its why Bio and Chem Weapons are considered violation of the Geneva Protocols and will land the leader of a country that employs them as a war criminal. Theyre that bad and caustic a weapon that most nations willingly agree to not employ them in conflicts.

It's also a case of its performance during the Calamity differing to what earlier test results showed, because of how it interacted with the light seeping into the world. I suspect that not even the Ascians realised it would be this effective, as even Emet-Selch's musings on it were speculative in nature - and confined to the First's predicament - but nonetheless, they were no doubt pleased with that.

Also, I didn't think Garlemald itself actually got invaded - unless I missed that? I thought they were just being pushed back - pushed back from their own invasion, no less.

He's referring to their history before they became an Empire. A lot of their neighbours attempted to conquer them, thinking that the general inability of Pureblood to use aether would make them an easier target, but Garlemald eventually bested them by using subterfuge, employing magi into its armies and eventually through warmachina, and later ceruleum and magitek. That's why they generally view most other nations with contempt and cynicism. Something also forced them out of what is now speculated to be their original homeland, Goug, but we don't have a complete picture of that aspect of their history just yet.

[Theodric]

And even SE mentioned it from the very beginning of FFXIV's history, 1.0's backstory blurb that used to be on the FFXIV website and in it's manual outright stated that the Empire was beligerent,for not other reason that they were the designated antagonists. Anyone familar with past FF games should have really expected no different.

A lot of things have changed since the days of 1.0, though I think the more correct element would be to say that anyone familiar with past Final Fantasy games should expect intriguing antagonists with depth and complex morality. Final Fantasy XII and Final Fantasy Tactics have it in spades, especially given that Archades in FF12 was presented as a very complex and nuanced take on the typical 'Empire' trope. It wasn't destroyed at the end of the game or even dismantled, so hopefully FFXIV takes some cues on that front. Final Fantasy VII had elements of depth to Shinra (Rufus and Reeve), with the former being such a popular character he was given an expanded role in Advent Children. Final Fantasy VIII had Seifer. Final Fantasy IX had Beatrix and Kuja - both of whom did terrible things but had a change of heart/were granted mercy.

A lot of people playing this game also care nothing - or very little - for Eorzea itself. I'm very much in that boat, finding the likes of Sharlayan, Hingashi and Garlemald to be far more engaging due to having actual struggles that can't just be resolved instantly thanks to the Warrior of Light as a convenient plot device.

Furthermore, the lead writers are in record in official Q&A sessions as stating that the antagonists have their own reasons for doing things and much of the moral conflict is ideological. Garlemald has also turned out to be very popular, so no doubt the writing moving forward will take that into account as well.

[Melichoir]

Except what ever moral high-ground the Empire had went completely out the window when it was revealed their whole ideology was built as a lie - Zenos even lampshaded the Empire's hypocrisy about the Primals outright. It was pretty clear even early on that there was more to the Empire's zealous "kill all Primals" directive when they were antagonizing the beastmen who were summoning, and of course, surprise surprise, it turns out they were founded by the very forces teaching the beastmen to summon in the first place! Accordingly every other strong moral arguement they might have had disappeared into the smoke it was.

The empire wasnt teaching the beastmen how to summon them, The ascians were, unless I misunderstood this point in the story. The antagonists to the beastmen wasnt the Empire. It was the city states like Uldah, Gridania, Limsa, and similar organizations and places. This was part of Varis' point. The eorzean leaders like to act like theyre good and righteous but every single one of their cities has acted or is acting in a self interested fashion and commiting or have commited crimes that do rival those of Garlemald. It's hard to argue that Garlemalds empire building is evil when your own nation has been doing the very same things to the beast tribes, acting aggressively, and then getting pissed that the Beast tribes are resorting to last ditch effort plan of summoning a primal.

Even more so, the only reason the Eorzean alliance is a real thing is cause of the Garlean threat. Prior to that, they were separate city states that butted heads militaristicly at a regular intervals. Heck, if you go back far enough, Uldah wiped out another city state with a terrible weapon in a self interested conflict. As I think I said earlier, the city states are operating in a self interested manner, not a virtuous one.

Youre also conflating the motivations of the public with the secret motivations of the Ascians. The garlean public dont know Solus was an ascian with his own secret reasoning for everything and decided to go along with it. The empire in the public sense believes the official story. The Ascians are abusing htat public perception to achieve their own means. So the moral highground hasnt been lost, atleast not in the context of the broader public.

You are right though that the Garlean people were victims in a way - Emet set up the Empire as 'Solus' specifically for the sole reason to create a Calamity after all, as that was his MO: find a put-upon, oppressed people, possess some lowly but still well-placed individual close to said government, provide miraculous answers to the nation's problems, and then build up the nation carefully as a powerhouse, then proceed to go forth and conquer their neighbours, hammering them under the jackboot into a mighty yet oppressive empire. Then stoke unrest in said provinces, resulting in resistance and further bloodshed, thus allowing the perfect chaotic situtation to eventually result in a Calamity. He cared nothing for the nations he created and abandoned to their fate, they were just tools to be used in the Ascians' greater plan of allowing Zodiark's rebirth. He did this with Garlemald. He did it with the Allag. He was beginning to do so with Eulmore on the First. And "an assorted half-dozen other nations with Imperial ambitions besides", as he so gleefully admitted to the player and the Scions.

Yes, but again the Garlean people were a oppressed people to begin with due to their nature. And that same people are not aware of Emet's plans. In the public eye, the history plays out like this - An oppressed people are lead to salvation by one of their own with the discovery of ceruleum and technological revolution following. They expand and defeat their former enemies who treated them poorly, go after nations using destructive Primal magic, and wishing to bring civility and order to nations and barbaric city states. The perspective of the Garlean is that the cause is just. This is why I said this isnt a "Eorzea Good, Garlemald Evil" situation thats cut and dry, and more of a conflict of opposing views. Both sides have acted or are acting terribly.

And even SE mentioned it from the very beginning of FFXIV's history, 1.0's backstory blurb that used to be on the FFXIV website and in it's manual outright stated that the Empire was beligerent,for not other reason that they were the designated antagonists. Anyone familar with past FF games should have really expected no different.

Id chalk this up to either them just making the Garleans a generic "Evil Empire" and lack of writing OR a batman gambit where they were evil evil evil but later we realize some deep profound truth that alters our perceptoins. Considering how clunky 1.0 was along with your point about FF games, I assume the former, not the latter.

In fact I would like nothing more than having a story arc where it highlights more of the stupid crap the Eorzeans get up to and gives a lot of justification to the Empire's public position. A big problem I have with the WoL position is that more often than not, we seem to not be so much the warrior of light, but the Warrior of Eorzea. We've actually done very little in trying to create balance and simmer things down. Granted Ascians are controlling the Garlean Empire from the shadows, but the primal summonings and etc? Those are all retaliatory actions the beast tribes have taken up against the city states that have either oppressed them or taken their land. As it currently stands, the city state leaders seem to see us as an ally to Eorzea, and not the true purpose of serving Hydaelyn and stopping ascians. Currently those two goals are alligned, but what happens when they no longer are? At some point Eorzea and her city states need to be addressed.

[Kaiserdrache]

So what all is everyone expecting from the Weapons sidequest? Thus far, my expectations were:

- Gaius will be a supporting NPC in some regard, perhaps fighting a bunch of NPCs offscreen to explain why he's not involved in a fight against something that can't enthrall him.

- Cutscenes will deal with Gaius addressing the corruption and flaws of the Empire, perhaps with the WoL calling him out on some things. If no new Legatus is introduced as the person behind the project, we'll likely get Gaius' thoughts on Varis' inhumane usage of his soldiers as seeming batteries for the bosses.

- Trials will be Ruby, Emerald, and Omega Weapons.

- There will be a dungeon before the latter fight where Jade, Sapphire, and Diamond weapon are bosses. Midgar? Junon's Underwater Reactor?

- If Omega Weapon is indeed used and there's a Legatus overseeing things, the Legatus will intentionally hook themselves up to OW to try killing the WoL.

Lol, fail at the moment you mention Omega...

Its more than obvious that the Weapons coming will be based on the most well known ones from FF7, otherwise SE wouldn't begin with Ruby Weapon, so its quite clear that the other two will be Emerald and Diamond Weapon, which were the 3 strongest Weapons in the game. There existed no Omega Weapon in FF7.

If we will see ever an Omega Weapon they way it is known from FF8, then I guess eventually as part of the last Eden Content Part as a Boss battle, because Eden is FF14's homage to FF8 actually.

I'd be very surprised if we get to see Saphire Weapon eventually as a Dungeon Boss, and far much more surprised if SE truly pulls out the bunny out of the magic hat and brings the Weapon that only Hardcore FF7 Fans know existed as part of that japan only FF7 handy game Before Crisis, but wasn't part of the original - Jade Weapon - extremely unlikely, even much more unlikely than Omega Weapon that has absolute no FF7 relationship at all.

[Rufalus]

Omega Weapon that has absolute no FF7 relationship at all.

IIRC it's like a last resort weapon which lifts the lifestream from the dying planet, journeys to a new planet and transplants it.
DoC FF VII

[Angus-Beef]

Omega Weapon is different from Omega. Unless you mean the O12S form, in which case I suppose that's close enough to count.

You also have to remember that Omega weapon in 7 is also a last resort weapon, it just sucks the life out of the planet.

[Berteaux_Braumegain]

You also have to remember that Omega weapon in 7 is also a last resort weapon, it just sucks the life out of the planet.

True, but the Weapons in XIV are artificially created by Garlemald, so I don't think we should hold them by the same standards.

Regarding my mentioning of Omega Weapon being a trial, my reasoning was this: Ruby and Emerald are superbosses from their original game. It'd be weird to make the two superbosses weaker than Diamond Weapon, who was just a regular story boss, so I substituted Omega in their place as a Trial. Omega was also a story boss, but Omega is also seen as the strongest of the Weapons whenever it appears, so that's why I suggested he be last. That's not to say I don't want to see Diamond or Sapphire, though, hence my suggestion they could be dungeon bosses for a mid-quest dungeon ala the Swallow's Compass.

[Kaiserdrache]

IIRC it's like a last resort weapon which lifts the lifestream from the dying planet, journeys to a new planet and transplants it.
DoC FF VII

Dirge of Cerberus IS NOT the original game story of the 1997'er original game that gets remaked as we speak and gets ready for the long awaited reunion at 03.03.2020, a bit over 50 days away from us.

DiC plays storywise 2 years AFTER the real main plot, and this is why I said that Omega Weapon has absolutely no relationship to FF7, otherwise I would have explicitely mentioned DoC in that same comment.
Every true FF7 fan who played the compilation spinoffs like DoC knows that Omega Weapon plays a part in DoC, but you just have to divide in regard of weapons the spinoffs from the original main game, becaus the main game show the player absolutely nowhere at all, that there even exist besides of Ruby, Emerald, Diamond, Sapphire and Ultima Weapon with Jade Weapon and Omega Weapon ecen two more ones, because these two played only fore the spinoff game storied a role, but not for the original Main Game.

However, who knows with FF7R, how much of this will change eventually hopefully.
I do definetely hope for it that SE will use all of the spinoff game content from the 3 games and especially the movie Advent Children to truly deliver us the most sublime ultimate remake experience of the FF7 world, they possibly can, becaus all this compilation content is the greatest possible filler content that SE can simply use for the remake to close alot of story gaps and uncleared questions, which the original game left open and never answered, which is why these spinoffs were made in the first place, as fan service to bring in some light in the shadows of the many story gaps and uncleared things from the original game.

It would be just awesome if we would play later the remake and can find then everywhere in the game things, that are basically relinks to the compilation.

Examples

As we have seen already in Remake Trailers, Heidegger brings AVALANCHE into connection with the Wutai War, which is FF7 lore that the handy game Before Crisis handles about, where you, the player view the story from the viewpoint of a Turk at the time when Midgar was in war with Wutai, story that is in the OG already long over, but could find alot more screantime, explanations, storybased hidden golden eggs and even playable stuff in form of flashbacks in the FF7 Remake to merge the story of the main game and the spinoff closer together to become able what happened all already before we go with Cloud into Bombing Mission to nuke the first Mako Reactor.
In the Shinra HQ, in Wutai self and when we have the various meetings with the Turks, that are the best spots to inject the BC lore into the remake.

Then there's this huge connection between Cloud Strife and Zack Fair and the Origins from the Buster Sword that belonged originally to Zack's Master, Angeal.
Also somthing the original never really fully showed, theres only that hidden sequence in nibelheim that show how Cloud became how he is at the begin, how Zack died, inngame the Nibelheim Reactor with Clouds twisted memories of him believing being Zack, despite being just a simple Rank 3 SOLDIER in reality, that is nothing more but a simple guard/foot soldier.
If the remake would show n explain more of this, than the OG did, showing also characters like Angeal n Genesis and his connection/obessession to Loveless, would be awesome filler content for FF7R to give the remake far more depth. Is in fact Loveless one of the first things players see in the opening!!! without knowing, what is behind all that, thinking maybe its a musical or name of a pub.CC is the spinoff that shows only whats behind it, in the OG its meaningless absolutely.

Lastly it would be awesome if the remake gives us hints this time, that stuff like Jade Weapon existed and Omega Weapon exists hinting also at the existance of Deepground and the characters that play part in DoC to get a glimpse of what Vincent will do most likely, after saving the planet first and to get in the remake also a better understanding of him as character, which is something the OG sparely did, where Vincent got handled like Yuffie like Secret Characters that were esdentially obsolete, because they played no roles in the overall main story, hopefully also something that the remake can fix with the help of the indlusiof of compilation content, just that for DoC it has to be more subtle, becaus the stuf of DoC is in the future of the OG, so hint can n may naturally tell not anything about things, that haven't happened by that time.

If the Remake ends its last part then with replayable AC lore with the real Cloud making his farewells to the spiritual imaginations of Aerith n Zack in the church where he met Aerith the first time by crash landing into her "flower bed", that would be the ultimate best true ending with that SE could end the remake for me.

TLDR Fan Hype ^^

The remake hopefully makes Omega Weapon and alot of other stuff like Jade Weapon, Wutai War, Turks from the past, Clouds connection to Zack, Angeal n Genesis do make having a clear relationship to FF7's Main Story, while letting us end it with Clouds farewells of AC and finding here n there hidden lore bits that give us hints to DoC content to connect it better to the Main Story.