Tanks should have increased enmity by deafault!

[Maeka]

I wouldn't advise that personally. A recurring theme I've been having in E4S PUGS is MT dies due to being greedy in the first EE (slow) and due to the OT not setting up stance the highest dps not only eats the first auto but also eats the orange stack (resulting in a domino effect). If the OT had stance it could salvage that by eating the auto and living enough to survive orange and be able to set up mitigation.

If tank stance OT has no chance in hell over taking aggro then there is no reason to not have it on. Some people are lazy and don't want to, but with how strong voke is and how enmity is this expac it's best to keep it on as there won't be an issue.

Because lbr people goof up and you can always better save a run by playing safe and having OT ready to go, and again in a fight like E4S you want both tanks to be top aggro as mechs like Blue knockback-minibusters target those in particular.

I suppose in Savage, perhaps?

But the OP is talking about PUGs, which I assume he's talking about Normal Trial Roulettes. (EDIT: Re-read the OP and ok they're talking about Alliance Raids, but still.)

If you want to go PUG a Savage... um... You're far braver than I, lol.

[Noitems]

I suppose in Savage, perhaps?

But the OP is talking about PUGs, which I assume he's talking about Normal Trial Roulettes. (EDIT: Re-read the OP and ok they're talking about Alliance Raids, but still.)

If you want to go PUG a Savage... um... You're far braver than I, lol.

Even then, core fundamental value of tanking as both MT/OT is to hold aggro and not let the dps/heals become a target for the boss due to enmity. That's the reason they had all the tools back in 3.x and 4.x like diversion and lucid, to make tanks have an easier time holding aggro. The only made tanks lives easier by removing those options and reinforcing tank aggro through mastery and stance, that's still no real excuse to let heals/dps eat a hit that isn't needed.

[Alaeacus]

I don't always have tank stance on when off-tanking but I usually Focus Target the main tank and Stance/Provoke very early.

Your problem probably isn't with offtanks not having good aggro built. Most offtanks, especially in 24-mans, just space out and do something like watch Netflix while they play. They don't even pay attention and they don't care to. Half of them have no rotation and are basically auto-attacking (I've sat and watched them many times).

Either that or they power-leveled through PotD/HoH and play like they are a dps.

It's so easy to grab aggro as a tank, I've come to the conclusion that most tanks aren't even trying. Even WHEN they have tank stance on, a lot of times they stand with all the DPS and are constantly fighting me for aggro, cleaving the group in the process.

[Bright-Flower]

Nope. While I'm glad tank stances no longer have the +def -dps aspect to them, we should keep the enmity stance. It's a useful tool to toggle as an OT so that I stay behind the MT but above the rest of the party on enmity, so that if the MT goes down I have enmity, without having to either hold back dps or risk pulling threat by accident.

[Derio]

Thats a player problem not a dev problem

[Payadopa]

Yeah, how about we make every class have raise, can DPS and hold hate forever? Or implement a button labelled 'resolve' before every dungeon so you don't have to queue anymore but still get EXP?

[BarretOblivion]

OT turns the tank stance off because you don't want both the MT and OT eating cleaves by standing in front of it, but yet you don't want the boss flipflopping between two tanks fighting for aggro so that they can dump cleaves on the rest of the group, nor do you want the OT purposefully doing less DPS to make sure the boss stays on the MT.

If an OT is so far into his MAX DEEPS rotation to not notice the MT died, then that's simply on them and when you get back up, remind the OT that he's gotta pay attention. Simple enough.

MT shouldn't have died to begin with. Blame the MT. They picked to be the MT which means they better not die. Of course if they died to lack of heals then you got a healer problem. Don't try scape goating the OT when someone else had to screw up first to create the situation.

Edit: Another reason why I never hit tank stance and instead voke/shirk to hit 2nd on hate and stay there is because some tanks can indeed rip hate off thier other tank over time. For example, although WAR creates alot of hate, as the fight drags on a PLD/GNB will take them over time due to the rest of their kit outside of IR basically hits like a wet noodle while PLD/GNB have a fairly consistant damage that is higher than WAR. I personally have ripped hate off of my MT numerous times even after waiting more than 12 GCDs for them to establish a lead. Nice try at straw maning.

[VeolE]

[MerlinCross]

Nope. While I'm glad tank stances no longer have the +def -dps aspect to them, we should keep the enmity stance. It's a useful tool to toggle as an OT so that I stay behind the MT but above the rest of the party on enmity, so that if the MT goes down I have enmity, without having to either hold back dps or risk pulling threat by accident.

That seems a lot of work/effort when Stance+Provoke is a thing.

On topic, maybe just give tanks higher aggro so they can stay second in threat and have MT turn on the Stance?

[Valic]

How about ya'all just communicate with the friggin chatbox to tell them to turn on their stance and tank when the tank is down and a wipe is a wipe... good lord do we need our hands held through EVERYTHING?