PLDs: You have Clemency for a reason.

[Valic]

I feel like you don't actually know how GCDs work.

Raises, sure if the healers are dead or like 3 people have died at once. Shields, yeah, sure. Spamming single target GCD heals that barely do more than a Cure 1? Very unlikely to be helpful.

I know how they work and I see the thing rotate twice to signify it's 2 GCD's used, and I'm agreeing with your comment. Let's end this already?

[SaberMaxwell]

Then what is this "the equivalent of 1" stuff you're saying? It's not the equivalent of 1 GCD, it's literally 2 GCDs.

[Maeka]

Then what is this "the equivalent of 1" stuff you're saying? It's not the equivalent of 1 GCD, it's literally 2 GCDs.

I was referring to the amount of time that one Clemency (thus once GCD) could keep the PLD going until more healing was needed.

Scenario A...

PLD casts one Holy Circle/Holy Spirit, receives zero healing from himself, needs heals from healer.

Scenario B...

PLD casts one Clemency, receives a decently large heal, esp. with Req, which keeps him alive long enough for a healer to cast 2-3 AoE damage spells.

2-3 AoE damage spells are going to do more damage than one Holy Circle.

[SaberMaxwell]

I was referring to

You're not the person I was speaking to, and the subject of discussion was double vercure.

Also 2-3 holy circles are going to do more damage than 2-3 healer AoEs, if the healer needs to resort to GCD healing then the priority is on them to stop damaging and start healing, rather than on the second party to know what the healer is doing and adjust for them.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

I was referring to the amount of time that one Clemency (thus once GCD) could keep the PLD going until more healing was needed.

Scenario A...

PLD casts one Holy Circle/Holy Spirit, receives zero healing from himself, needs heals from healer.

Scenario B...

PLD casts one Clemency, receives a decently large heal, esp. with Req, which keeps him alive long enough for a healer to cast 2-3 AoE damage spells.

2-3 AoE damage spells are going to do more damage than one Holy Circle.

I believe I blatantly pointed out how completely and irrevocably wrong this statement was, in this very thread already, and also congratulated you on knowing 2 or 3 is more than 1.

Sorry but you CANNOT justify false equations to make your pathetic point.

375 +375 > 140 + 140. 375 + 375 + 375 >>160 + 160 + 160.

^ this is the accurate equation you are looking for, you cannot compare 2 or 3 GCDs versus 1 GCD, this is moving goalpost to make your argument. You have to factor equal GCD usage from both parties.

But well done, you know 2 and 3 is more than 1, congratulations. Think you trying to justify your point is the most laughable thing on this entire thread.

To save you the hassle of scrolling back through the thread.

[Maeka]

I believe I blatantly pointed out how completely and irrevocably wrong this statement was, in this very thread already, and also congratulated you on knowing 2 or 3 is more than 1.


To save you the hassle of scrolling back through the thread.

I didn't see it buried in the thread, but that's also faulty.

You wanna know why?

Because the PLD is going to be doing other things.

Let's say the PLD pops Req and has 10,000MP like he should.

He pops 4 Holy Circles, and then he has a choice. He's at 30-50% left. He could pop 1 more Holy Circle and use the last of his MP, or he could pop 1 Clemency instead. If he pops 1 Clemency, he gives the healer more time to AoE before they have to stop and heal him, probably 2-3 AoEs worth. Obviously while the healer is doing that, he's doing Eclipse and Prominence, or whatever while the healer is throwing their AoEs.

Or he could just pop the last Holy Circle and now the healer has to stop their AoE and heal him because he's at 30% or less (or will be within a GCD or two).

You're basically offering a choice between 1 Holy Circle, or 2-3 more Healer AoEs in that situation. He can't do two Holy Circles because he only has 2,000MP left (not counting the few hundred he would have regained during those 5 GCDs, obviously).

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

I didn't see it buried in the thread, but that's also faulty.

You wanna know why?

Because the PLD is going to be doing other things.

Let's say the PLD pops Req and has 10,000MP like he should.

He pops 4 Holy Circles, and then he has a choice. He's at 30-50% left. He could pop 1 more Holy Circle and use the last of his MP, or he could pop 1 Clemency instead. If he pops 1 Clemency, he gives the healer more time to AoE before they have to stop and heal him, probably 2-3 AoEs worth. Obviously while the healer is doing that, he's doing Eclipse and Prominence, or whatever while the healer is throwing their AoEs.

Or he could just pop the last Holy Circle and now the healer has to stop their AoE and heal him because he's at 30% or less (or will be within a GCD or two).

You're basically offering a choice between 1 Holy Circle, or 2-3 more Healer AoEs in that situation. He can't do two Holy Circles because he only has 2,000MP left (not counting the few hundred he would have regained during those 5 GCDs, obviously).

Okay so it's down to one GCD versus one GCD. It's literally like you are trying so hard to suit yourself in this joke of an argument.
Also you cannot say that this scenario is gonna fall on the last, or the first, or whatever cast.

So let me put it this way, tank AoE damage is absolutely nuts now, and it beats out healers in EVERY situation.

Also you cannot expect that last spell to be Clemency at 80, because that is Confiteor a massive 1200 potency hit, including buff from Requiescat.

Even before then, healers are healers, it is more mp efficient, better healing tools, and as long as you are not a completely incompetent healer, this should never come about.

No paladin should have to sacrifice damage, to cater to a pleb that made it so far into the game that leaves one to question: how the hell did this idiot get so far into the game and not learn how to play the job?

End of the day, tank AoE damage trumps healer AoE damage, so get healing and stop making excuse for paladin's to play bad at the expense of you not being able to cut it.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

Also worth noting requiescat is used anywhere from right away to second GCD in AoE pulls depending on how the packs are spread, The Twinning for example you are gated so can pop requiescat, after second boss melee combo then requiescat.

Basically Requiescat should be the first buff you use in AoE, so if you have a tank dying in 7 GCDs...then yikes...

[Maeka]

Basically Requiescat should be the first buff you use in AoE, so if you have a tank dying in 7 GCDs...then yikes...

You'd be surprised how many tanks grab 3 packs and then they go from 100% to 30% in about 2-3 GCDs. Especially early dungeon when I did WHM in Expert, hey... Lilies take awhile to build, and outside of Lilies my only instants are Assize (which is more of a DPS spell anyhow), Tetra and Bene (which has a second or so delay from when you actually hit the button, annoyingly enough).

Soo....

You'd get this tank who thinks it's an awesome idea to grab this huge pack, doesn't pop HG, I got 0-1 lilies at that point, and I'm chaincasting Cure 2 because wtf else am I supposed to do at that point? Benison lasts less than one second, it's hard to find time to cast Regen, even, because if you spend a GCD on anything other than a heal, by the time you get the next heal out, he's either dead or he's on death's door and he's about to keel over if he does the slightest thing wrong.

Now obviously this is the sign of a bad tank not knowing what mitigation buttons he should be using when, but it does happen and I freaking hate it.

It does happen. It happened a bit too often for my liking back when I did Expert. I don't do Expert now, because I got phantasmagoria gear now on the one job I actually care about gearing that in, so now I'm leveling my other jobs so I can eventually take a break, lol.

But even so, I hate Qing up for a leveling dungeon, wearing last dungeon's gear, being barely leveled for a dungeon and there goes the tank in full speedrun mode.

Ah well. Some people love the taste of dirt, I guess.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

You'd be surprised how many tanks grab 3 packs and then they go from 100% to 30% in about 2-3 GCDs. Especially early dungeon when I did WHM in Expert, hey... Lilies take awhile to build, and outside of Lilies my only instants are Assize (which is more of a DPS spell anyhow), Tetra and Bene (which has a second or so delay from when you actually hit the button, annoyingly enough).

Soo....

You'd get this tank who thinks it's an awesome idea to grab this huge pack, doesn't pop HG, I got 0-1 lilies at that point, and I'm chaincasting Cure 2 because wtf else am I supposed to do at that point? Benison lasts less than one second, it's hard to find time to cast Regen, even, because if you spend a GCD on anything other than a heal, by the time you get the next heal out, he's either dead or he's on death's door and he's about to keel over if he does the slightest thing wrong.

Now obviously this is the sign of a bad tank not knowing what mitigation buttons he should be using when, but it does happen and I freaking hate it.

It does happen. It happened a bit too often for my liking back when I did Expert. I don't do Expert now, because I got phantasmagoria gear now on the one job I actually care about gearing that in, so now I'm leveling my other jobs so I can eventually take a break, lol.

But even so, I hate Qing up for a leveling dungeon, wearing last dungeon's gear, being barely leveled for a dungeon and there goes the tank in full speedrun mode.

Ah well. Some people love the taste of dirt, I guess.

Benison you should get on the tank before they start pulling, should give some of a buffer, then tetra (depending on how low the tank is or if they pop invuln) and regen, and assize should be enough, on the initial part before holy spam to stun lock mobs. Usually keep bene for middle of a trash pack so can get an extra holy cast out.

First pull you have access to all your oGCDs so first pull should always be a breeze, when tanks use mitigation and dps are going ham on trash.

You are gonna get outliers, where tanks will think they're built like a brick wall, but melt like butter, because they don't use cooldowns...I'll let them die in most cases, because that isn't sustainable or recoverable. Then ask them politely to make use of defensive cooldowns.

They're straight up a bad tank, no amount of healing is gonna fix that, only practice and reading tooltips will help those tanks, but by 70+ it's yikes that they still haven't learnt to use their kits, equally said for healers I've seen that could benefit from reading tooltips.