PLDs: You have Clemency for a reason.

[Rasikko]

Sacred soul decreases damage taken by 10%. The tooltip is correct.

All damage reduction %'s stack multiplicativly, meaning that tanks, who have an innate 20% damage reduction, are effectively taking 10% less of 80%. A tank with a 30% cooldown popped is getting 5.6% dr from soil. A warrior stacking cooldowns of different types will get effective DR of less than 5%.

This is why tenacity is an awful stat to stack, because in places you would think tenacity is helpful, its defensive value is half of what its stat value says it is.

If DR was additive to a point, or healer DR% worked like the Vie line in EQ / tank and dps damage debuffs in 14, youd get a lot more value out of small DR packets.


You get sacred soil because it's a decent tool to deal with AE's, especially once its also is a regen field.

If DR was additive, it would be really broken.

[Yorumi]

Because the point is.. regardless it's still apart of their kit and has uses that people choose to absolutely ignore in favor of "but muh dps". RDM's vercure can be double casted and be practically 1 GCD considering how dualcast works. In any case, every job should consider their full kit, even if it came at a personal cost to themselves, it may be the difference in the party wiping or not.

The dual casted spell still consumes a gcd just like using swiftcast, it just eliminates the casting time. Rdm's have dualcast for thematic reasons, and to make it useful the devs gave veraero and verthunder a 5 second cast time so they're supposed to be dualcast.

What I'm really trying to get people to understand is these abilities are extremely complicated in their use. A real battle in this game doesn't play out like their forum fantasies. Rdm is a random class, they don't have a fixed rotation but a priority rotation. They don't necessarily know what their next cast is until the previous one has finished. They have mana management, mechanics to worry about which gets complicated too because a rdm's position changes so much. Even verflare/holy aren't entirely straight forward, normally you use the one opposite your mana balance but you also have to pay attention to whether or not you already have that one's effect proced.

Vercure is targeted. You don't get to just push a button and heal someone. No other dps is expected to do all their mechanics while also babysitting health bars and somehow reading the healer's mind to know if they're struggling or have things under control. Again it's not that should be ignored but it's a level of responsibility way above and beyond what any other dps is expected to do. I also find it interesting how many people who do not play rdm or pld expect them to do more than the classes they themselves are playing. The situation in battle is very complicated and you have just a split second to decide what ability you're using while assessing what is procced, what state your mana is in, what is coming off cooldown and when, and what the boss is doing to the battlefield. Lets stop implying player are bad just because they're not playing a dps or tank at near god tier levels with mind reader abilities.

[Maeka]

Responses in bold, thanks for coming to my TEDTalk.

Is there some reason why you can't multiquote?

Replying to you is very annoying when I have to manually copy and paste each of your responses and manually quote, because when I go to reply, it omits the entire block of what you typed, because you included it inside of my quote. So please don't do that, kthx.

We've all had bad experiences with duty finder. That's the beauty of duty finder. You have no idea the kinds of people you'll encounter there, from savage raiders trying to cap tomes to a level 54 WHM in stone vigil with not a single piece of gear above level 30 requirement. You shouldn't let past bad experiences forever taint your future endeavors.

Obviously. Did I say otherwise? No.

But apparently we're not supposed to engage in conversation with the various people of the forums to get at least a few people to consider a different way to play and/or to ask people to consider doing things differently and/or to vent some steam and/or to explain why it's crappy behavior.

Only thing im'a say on this is it's a lack of trust. If a PLD is using clemency too often or willy nilly, it shows they do not trust their healers. This is bad gameplay and just a bad mentality overall. A clemency here or there if the healer's struggling is fine IMO. Unfortunately, this whole thing is one massive grey area, nothing is cut and dry

Did I say willy-nilly? No, I said if you're hovering down at 25-30% health for several seconds, consider casting a Clemency and then pay attention to the healer to see if they are struggling.

DRKs use AD because it's free damage with a bonus of a pitiful heal on top. In trash pulls it's a nice topper upper, but yes the heal it gives is ignorable most of the time. It's just free damage. I'd be more taken aback to hear a DRK ISNT using AD on cooldown.

I've seen plenty of times where a DRK waits until he has the biggest pull possible, and pops AD and ZIP he goes from 50% health to almost full in a split second. That's "Ignorable"? Hardly. That's nearly as much as a Cure II crit.

No. Unless you're memeing together with the PLD the PLD gains more from doing damage than letting the healer get another AoW/Gravity, and Holy is arguable IMO but only because Holy stuns build up stun resist on the mobs. And no, a 250 baseline potency holy circle WILL do more than a baseline 140 potency Holy/Gravity // 160 potency AoW, ignoring that Holy Circle would/should have the boost from Requiescat so it'd be even MORE potent.

I'ma have to insist you don't think that this thing here, that a healer AoE GCD at the expense of a holy circle is ever worth. Ever. Strictly speaking, Holy Circle > whatever AoE damage the healer offers; 100% ignoring "bUt ClEmEnCy CuZ hEaLeR cAnT kEeP uP" shenanigans.

140+140 > 250. 160+160+160 >> 250.

That's... what's been said by others as well? It's incredibly niche to use and optimizing its usage at all is so beyond galactic brain that I know I'm not capable of attempting to do the maths on it. But what I want to hammer home is You should not expect a PLD to use clemency as the default status quo, and if you get matched with a PLD and they use Clemency assess the smartness of its use.

I expect a tank to do whatever the tank needs to do to keep himself alive, regardless as to why he's in danger instead of sacrificing his own life for a Holy Circle cast. Especially before Holy Circle, lol. That's even more laughable.

Just say you should speak up more. The whole "well yeah but what about other people" thing you did here really comes off as immature.

I'm identifying that the whole problem of healers whining about people casting Clemency is part of the problem and I want it addressed too. It is a problem, and people need to stop doing it.

This has nothing to do with me being immature, or me trying to shift blame, I am trying to get discussion going about the entire problem, all parts involved, not just some of it.

The problem is, sure you can accept you made mistakes, no one will deny that. But when you say "well yeah I messed up but so did this other person // Yeah I could've done things better but so could this other person // etc etc" it comes off that you aren't REALLY accepting that you made mistakes and owning up to that. It shows you trying to shirk the responsibility of admittance from yourself and apply that to everyone else/as well. Just look at how you even started this thread to begin with! Even the title itself comes off as "well I might have messed up but YOU MESSED UP WORSE, SPEEDRUNNER PALADIN!!!"

The, I don't know, topic of the thread happens to be "Speedrunning Paladins who would rather risk their life for every bit of DPS rather than saving themselves with a cast of Clemency" .... not "How exactly did Maeka f--- up today?"

To be quite honest, whether or not I was playing optimally (I obviously wasn't, and I admitted that from the start) is, you know, off-topic to the subject of the entire thread.

It was never about why the Paladin was almost dead for several seconds, it was about the fact that after all the signs were there that I was having trouble dealing with 3-group pulls, he decided to cast Holy Circle and then drop dead seconds later when he could have saved the wipe by casting Clemency instead.

But I knew that people would pick me apart, and then shift all the blame onto me, ignoring what the actual subject of the thread is supposed to be about.

And again, it isn't me shifting blame, it's about me choosing to talk about a specific subject, that is, tanks who refuse to use Clemency even to save their own life. I realize I made mistakes, I missed buttons, I used things I shouldn't have used, yeah fine, I get that. But that's not the topic of the thread.

You want to talk about how much I suck as a healer? Fine, do that in a thread where that is actually the topic being discussed. I have, from time-to-time, posted "Healer Checkup" threads where I ask for input on my gameplay, and I listen to what people say, though I've not done one recently because the last one I did people were rather rude and inconsiderate. Constructive feedback is okay, being downright rude is not.

[MerlinCross]

Personally I question if Skill and Experience has helped to push this debate.

I rarely see Clemency as "Required" but more a crutch in case things get out of hand, same with Red's Vecure. Now more experienced players will claim it's a DPS loss for both, that it's better for the Healer to pop (insert ability here) but those are with the benefit of knowing the game far better or having reliable teammates. Though even solo, some Healers are able to manage the incoming damage properly to the point Clemency isn't needed. But it's not supposed to be needed in the first place. It's Training wheels.

Also, given I haven't run through the game as a PLD, how much would it hurt them if Clemancy was removed? For both their Job quests and Story Fights? And speaking of removed, a lot of people argue against it's use so what's the point in having it, but at the same time, what do you guys think would be a good replacement?

Maybe if Clemancy was changed to do something else but even then if it became a more Proactive defense CD I don't know if people would like giving up 1-3 GCDs a fight.

[Maeka]

Personally I question if Skill and Experience has helped to push this debate.

I rarely see Clemency as "Required" but more a crutch in case things get out of hand, same with Red's Vecure. Now more experienced players will claim it's a DPS loss for both, that it's better for the Healer to pop (insert ability here) but those are with the benefit of knowing the game far better or having reliable teammates. Though even solo, some Healers are able to manage the incoming damage properly to the point Clemency isn't needed. But it's not supposed to be needed in the first place. It's Training wheels.

Also, given I haven't run through the game as a PLD, how much would it hurt them if Clemancy was removed? For both their Job quests and Story Fights? And speaking of removed, a lot of people argue against it's use so what's the point in having it, but at the same time, what do you guys think would be a good replacement?

Maybe if Clemancy was changed to do something else but even then if it became a more Proactive defense CD I don't know if people would like giving up 1-3 GCDs a fight.

Clemency is awesome. I love having it.

It's a button that can get you out of a lot of jams, it's a button that makes PLD my favorite job to do FATEs with, it's a nice button that lets me save a healer's life sometimes, it's a button that can sometimes save the healer a cast of Raise if timed properly.

It's a very powerful tool in the toolbox, and I love having it. So please don't take it away.

I never meant to say that it should be thrown around like candy, but just taking it away and replacing it with yet another passive defense button is just.... eh.... no thanks. I, as a PLD, have saved quite a few lives with that little button, including my own.

The problem is, is that everybody is too fixated on "MAX DEEEEEEEPS" and anything that doesn't do DPS, or even worse, anything that interferes with DPS is seen as "bad". Clemency takes a couple seconds to cast, it eats up MP that could be used for a damage spell instead, so it's evil in the eyes of the general public. This is regardless of the fact that you never need Max DPS in anything that isn't Savage Raiding.

If anything, I would say that we should find ways to move people away from caring so much about DPS of Tanks and Healers than anything. It's unhealthy for the game and it leads to stuff like this. I remember back in early to mid Heavensward, where people in Duty Finder didn't really seem to care about DPS tanks or healers were doing back then. Fast-forward to now, Tanks and Healers alike are trying to push as high DPS as they can, and everything has to be a speedrun. I remember doing dungeons back in ARR, and we pulled single groups. Now you have to pull 2, 3 sometimes more groups or people start complaining.

It's just crazy what things have come to.

If savage raiders and speedrunners wanna get their 10-12 minute dungeon runs, they shouldn't be looking for them in Duty Finder. Just as that other person I quoted tells me I shouldn't be looking for PLDs willing to cast Clemency in Duty Finder, lol. The door swings both ways.

[MerlinCross]

I mean to be fair Maeka, I like having it myself from what little I've played of PLD. But I'm also someone that likes Shield Bash(Make it do more), and thinks Divine Veil is weird(Useless solo, just an AoE blunter for everyone but you?).

But much like Shield bash(RIP), if everything is goine fine you shouldn't need it. Yes you can do some neat saves with it but if the Healers are on point you shouldn't have to use it, or possibly the content will end up in a wipe even with that extra bit of healing so why bother.

IT's why I call it a Crutch. At lower levels of skill and nerves, it could be useful if the Healer is in the middle of a panic. As a WHM myself, I dislike seeing it go out before or after I popped healing but also I'm aware PLD have a good heal so unless they are in a state where one hit will kill them I move to other people first for healing. Or I heal them as they heal me/someone else. It's a nice thing to see when a PLD helps out when I'm in the middle of juggling a bunch of people's HP bars.

But to a more skilled Tank and Healer, they're probably aware that at the damage/differculty they are at Clemency isn't going to be as helpful. And the Healer has enough skill to not panic and get the healing out no problem. So why does this button exist outside of niche cases at this level?

Now this isn't to talk down to you or anything, I have no idea what level you play at. Just my own thoughts; I find Clemency to be more useful with randos and non savage content than I do with Premades/raid groups and the tougher fights.

[Yorumi]

Also, given I haven't run through the game as a PLD, how much would it hurt them if Clemancy was removed? For both their Job quests and Story Fights? And speaking of removed, a lot of people argue against it's use so what's the point in having it, but at the same time, what do you guys think would be a good replacement?

The spell is fine as it is really. Pld's already have too many skills anyway. PLds are supposed to have healing magic so it's good thematically. It's good for solo stuff and fine as an emergency skill from time to time. Mainly what people here are trying to get others to understand is that you shouldn't expect a non-healer to heal. Lets put it another way if we're letting the healer off the hook for failing to heal properly then we sure as heck can't blame the pld or rdm for not healing. Personally for me I just don't encounter healer that fail to keep me alive. Maybe it's because I do a good job tanking but if that's the case then we're basically looking at a combination of a bad healer with a bad tank and really what do we expect at that point?

[Maeka]

I mean to be fair Maeka, I like having it myself from what little I've played of PLD. But I'm also someone that likes Shield Bash(Make it do more), and thinks Divine Veil is weird(Useless solo, just an AoE blunter for everyone but you?).

But much like Shield bash(RIP), if everything is goine fine you shouldn't need it. Yes you can do some neat saves with it but if the Healers are on point you shouldn't have to use it, or possibly the content will end up in a wipe even with that extra bit of healing so why bother.

IT's why I call it a Crutch. At lower levels of skill and nerves, it could be useful if the Healer is in the middle of a panic. As a WHM myself, I dislike seeing it go out before or after I popped healing but also I'm aware PLD have a good heal so unless they are in a state where one hit will kill them I move to other people first for healing. Or I heal them as they heal me/someone else. It's a nice thing to see when a PLD helps out when I'm in the middle of juggling a bunch of people's HP bars.

But to a more skilled Tank and Healer, they're probably aware that at the damage/differculty they are at Clemency isn't going to be as helpful. And the Healer has enough skill to not panic and get the healing out no problem. So why does this button exist outside of niche cases at this level?

Now this isn't to talk down to you or anything, I have no idea what level you play at. Just my own thoughts; I find Clemency to be more useful with randos and non savage content than I do with Premades/raid groups and the tougher fights.

Obviously, Clemency should not be needed in a Pre-made higher-level fight.

I don't debate that for even a second. It's still a nice spell, and yes, it's nice to have in randoms when you don't know your healer, and/or you don't know if they might look away from the screen for a second because of an RL distraction, get a spot of lag, or maybe a healer doesn't know the dungeon and ends up eating dirt because they didn't know/forgot about/don't understand a mechanic, or what-not.

There's more content in the game than the endgame, and there's nothing wrong with having a tool in the toolbox that's geared more towards leveling content. Nothing wrong with that at all.

Just like Vercure isn't really meant for Savage Raiding, but yet, it's a nice little spell for solo and the occasional clutch heal. Heck, I've main-healed Tioman in Sohm Al on a couple occasions as a RDM because the actual healer would drop dead on the first Star attack. Not something you do on a regular basis, but it's nice when a rarely used tool in your toolbox saves a group.

As a healer myself, if I see a PLD using Clemency at 75%+ health, I just go "uh... whatever. They don't trust me, but I get it, I'm some rando, I can throw more DPS instead I suppose". It really doesn't bother me whatsoever. Maybe the tank is bored of doing the same DPS rotations over and over again and decided they'd do something different. Maybe they wanna have a heal race with me to see who can heal the DPS who ate a mechanic first. Who knows. It's Duty Finder. Relax. We're not doing progression raiding or anything, where every DPS matters.

Heck there are times I got a little bored, and I would do things like start casting heals before someone gets hit, just to see how close I can pull off an "immediate" heal, so that my heal lands like less than a second after the damage was taken, etc.

Duty Finder gives you plenty of room to just relax and have fun a bit and do unorthodox stuff for the fun of it.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

140+140 > 250. 160+160+160 >> 250.

I expect a tank to do whatever the tank needs to do to keep himself alive, regardless as to why he's in danger instead of sacrificing his own life for a Holy Circle cast. Especially before Holy Circle, lol. That's even more laughable.

Sorry but you CANNOT justify false equations to make your pathetic point.

375 +375 > 140 + 140. 375 + 375 + 375 >>160 + 160 + 160.

^ this is the accurate equation you are looking for, you cannot compare 2 or 3 GCDs versus 1 GCD, this is moving goalpost to make your argument. You have to factor equal GCD usage from both parties.

But well done, you know 2 and 3 is more than 1, congratulations. Think you trying to justify your point is the most laughable thing on this entire thread.

[WhyAmIHere]

Is there some reason why you can't multiquote?

Replying to you is very annoying when I have to manually copy and paste each of your responses and manually quote, because when I go to reply, it omits the entire block of what you typed, because you included it inside of my quote. So please don't do that, kthx.
You find it annoying, I find it easier for how I go about my business. Less cutting and pasting of comments and it allows me to maintain my train of thoughts by scrolling up to reread what I'm replying to and see if I'm making any mistakes. Besides, when a person is quoted there's those little white arrows in a tiny blue box next to the person's name that will take you to the post directly. So, sorry if it makes things harder for you but... healer adjust kthx. (that was meant as a joke, the italicized bit right there)


Obviously. Did I say otherwise? No.

But apparently we're not supposed to engage in conversation with the various people of the forums to get at least a few people to consider a different way to play and/or to ask people to consider doing things differently and/or to vent some steam and/or to explain why it's crappy behavior.
No, that's what forums are for. You just happened to encounter people who weren't buying what you were selling. "consider doing things differently" you say? There's that "5.0 adjusted openers" thread across all three role forums that's been lambasted and criticized mercilessly because the OP of that thread was trying to get input on a guide on jobs they very clearly knew nothing or little about, and I'd say they handled the criticism in their thread better than you've here.
Also it's a dialogue. You're not always going to encounter folks that agree with you, and you're not always going to get people who just say "lol ur bad git gud" and will provide some measure of feedback on how you can improve. Feigning trying to improve whilst saying "i do just fine on AST/WHM but SCH I struggle," being provided with tips from several people, myself included, on how you can improve your play on SCH, and you still harp on "but clemency" like you're not really paying attention to what's being said? Shows much.


Did I say willy-nilly? No, I said if you're hovering down at 25-30% health for several seconds, consider casting a Clemency and then pay attention to the healer to see if they are struggling.
25-30% HP isn't even threatening lol. if I see more like 2-10%? Maybe. but worrying about your HP at that low a level is in this tank main's opinion a waste of time. But again, PLD aint my cup of tea and I won't harp on clemency nor how it should be used. I'll leave that to others who know/enjoy PLD.


I've seen plenty of times where a DRK waits until he has the biggest pull possible, and pops AD and ZIP he goes from 50% health to almost full in a split second. That's "Ignorable"? Hardly. That's nearly as much as a Cure II crit.
Here's the thing.
Clemency is on the GCD, and requires you to push your ENTIRE ROTATION BACK to account for it.
AD is an oGCD that DOESNT mess with your rotation, AND does damage. The 200 potency heal is ONLY good on large pulls, but using it on CD is good. So yes, it's ignorable in the sense that the heal is NOT what I look at for using it, not as it's primary usage. it's more like a secondary effect to it now. It's not worthless but I'm never going to bank on the heal it provides when I could just TBN for more potency.


140+140 > 250. 160+160+160 >> 250.
Do you... even know math? Yeah sure two hits from one skill will do more damage than one hit from another skill. But dear lord your math is bad. The 250 Holy Circle potency is it's BASELINE, but 9.5 times out of 10 it will be used in Requiescat, which buffs the potency of Holy Circle. So, you're not factoring in the 4 casts of Holy Circle AND the Confetior finisher at ALL in your maths.
I'll leave someone who's good with numbers to also show you how wrong you are here.


I expect a tank to do whatever the tank needs to do to keep himself alive, regardless as to why he's in danger instead of sacrificing his own life for a Holy Circle cast. Especially before Holy Circle, lol. That's even more laughable.
So you expect another player to pick up the slack for you if you can't keep up? Great. Just say it like that then. Guess what? What would you do if everything about this situation was the same, except your tank was a WAR? or a GNB? or a DRK? I know it's been asked before, but what do YOU do when you can't fall back on "well just cast clemency on yourself?"


I'm identifying that the whole problem of healers whining about people casting Clemency is part of the problem and I want it addressed too. It is a problem, and people need to stop doing it.

This has nothing to do with me being immature, or me trying to shift blame, I am trying to get discussion going about the entire problem, all parts involved, not just some of it.
No, you're shifting goalposts. First it was about PLD using Clemency, now it's "healers shouldn't get upset about a PLD using clemency;" what's next "tanks shouldn't get upset if a healer regen's them before they establish enmity?"
Willing to bet most of the "I healer see Clemency I am doing an upset wahh" is a meme. If not and people are genuinely offended, like how DARE you offended... they have more problems themselves. LOL.


The, I don't know, topic of the thread happens to be "Speedrunning Paladins who would rather risk their life for every bit of DPS rather than saving themselves with a cast of Clemency" .... not "How exactly did Maeka f--- up today?"

To be quite honest, whether or not I was playing optimally (I obviously wasn't, and I admitted that from the start) is, you know, off-topic to the subject of the entire thread.

It was never about why the Paladin was almost dead for several seconds, it was about the fact that after all the signs were there that I was having trouble dealing with 3-group pulls, he decided to cast Holy Circle and then drop dead seconds later when he could have saved the wipe by casting Clemency instead.

But I knew that people would pick me apart, and then shift all the blame onto me, ignoring what the actual subject of the thread is supposed to be about.

And again, it isn't me shifting blame, it's about me choosing to talk about a specific subject, that is, tanks who refuse to use Clemency even to save their own life. I realize I made mistakes, I missed buttons, I used things I shouldn't have used, yeah fine, I get that. But that's not the topic of the thread.

You want to talk about how much I suck as a healer? Fine, do that in a thread where that is actually the topic being discussed. I have, from time-to-time, posted "Healer Checkup" threads where I ask for input on my gameplay, and I listen to what people say, though I've not done one recently because the last one I did people were rather rude and inconsiderate. Constructive feedback is okay, being downright rude is not.
You playing sub-optimally isn't even close. You just weren't playing well. You had problems maintaining the PLD's life in a dungeon. Plenty of folks came in and said as much. That they all were able to manage it and had no issues. That what were you doing wrong because if they could handle it, you could too. That the tank using sprint is the status quo in duty finder. ALL OF THESE THINGS ARE ENCOMPASSED BY THE VERY NATURE OF THIS THREADS DISCUSSION.

And hey, plenty of folks agreed that that PLD wasn't paying attention to what was going on too. I agree, PLD should have avoided tunneling on their rotation as hard. But expecting anyone to keep up with not only their own gameplay as well as the gameplay of others is an impossibility. That has been said countless times as well; that you need to realize your expectations of how other players should play to accommodate for your own short-comings is not good for anyone, yourself nor anyone you encounter.

Yes people picked you apart. But instead of seeing people trying to help you improve, you instead want to cry foul like everyone's out to get you, because we've seen enough flaws in your thought processes and posts here that ignoring the obvious errors in your judgment and trying to say "hey do Y not X you'll thank me later" would only benefit you.

Yes the thread started out by you making an exclamation as to how you feel others should play. Conversation happened and the topic of this thread expanded beyond your initial intent. Thats good, that's how a healthy dialogue grows. Trying to confine a thread only to within some narrow field of discussion only you want? Nah. Heck, stuff about RDM was even brought up in here. You against that as well?

You want PLD's to use clemency? Okay. I want all healers to be able to not need to rely on Clemency. Who's in the right here? Who's in the wrong?
Trick question there is no right or wrong when it comes to this opinion.

Not a single thing anyone besides the person I personally called out, that has directed any sort of tips towards you, has been rude or toxic. Just because someone says something you disagree with doesn't mean they're out to get you. Yes, people have pointed out that your skill as a healer could improve. That people've also taken the time to provide their own anecdotal experiences in the vague hope you'd take some input from what they're saying and try to apply it to your own gameplay speaks pretty well about the community here. This might be the "tank" section of the OF but not everyone here solely plays / only knows how to tank.
I don't care about your "healer checkup" threads. I see an opportunity HERE AND IN THIS THREAD to try to help. As have so many others here tried to do similarly.

Response in bold.