Tanks should have increased enmity by deafault!

[Maeka]

If they had it on by default you would have aggro ping pong, and you would most likely get cleaved. Imagining alliance raids with that would be absolutely horrifying.

In current content really it should just be:
MT has stance on, pulls
About 4 gcd's in OT can put on stance
Pending on the job combination OT may need to turn it off and turn it back on to avoid stealing aggro, but can also shirk as well if needed.

That's it.

Or simply, leave Stance off if you're the OT and -IF- the MT dies (they really shouldn't, but sometimes things happen), you have several seconds to use Stance, Provoke and then use nearly any skill on him and he's yours. Even if the boss did look at someone else, if someone unloads a Foul crit, or Barrage+Refulg, or what-not, your next attack should get it right back on you.

I've done this I don't know how many times, even while focused on another target. Such as Shiva's Ice Golems (admittedly I already had stance because I was the one picking up the golems), or heck I've picked up Susano a few times when they let the MT die. It really doesn't take long to throw stance on, provoke and hurry up and get the boss facing away from the group while you move it to where you want it.

What I hate even more is when the MT gets up, and gets a heal... first thing he does is he tosses a provoke and proceeds to fight me for aggro.

.......while rez weakened. Derp.

[Noitems]

Or simply, leave Stance off if you're the OT and -IF- the MT dies (they really shouldn't, but sometimes things happen), you have several seconds to use Stance, Provoke and then use nearly any skill on him and he's yours. Even if the boss did look at someone else, if someone unloads a Foul crit, or Barrage+Refulg, or what-not, your next attack should get it right back on you.

I've done this I don't know how many times, even while focused on another target. Such as Shiva's Ice Golems (admittedly I already had stance because I was the one picking up the golems), or heck I've picked up Susano a few times when they let the MT die. It really doesn't take long to throw stance on, provoke and hurry up and get the boss facing away from the group while you move it to where you want it.

What I hate even more is when the MT gets up, and gets a heal... first thing he does is he tosses a provoke and proceeds to fight me for aggro.

.......while rez weakened. Derp.

I wouldn't advise that personally. A recurring theme I've been having in E4S PUGS is MT dies due to being greedy in the first EE (slow) and due to the OT not setting up stance the highest dps not only eats the first auto but also eats the orange stack (resulting in a domino effect). If the OT had stance it could salvage that by eating the auto and living enough to survive orange and be able to set up mitigation.

If tank stance OT has no chance in hell over taking aggro then there is no reason to not have it on. Some people are lazy and don't want to, but with how strong voke is and how enmity is this expac it's best to keep it on as there won't be an issue.

Because lbr people goof up and you can always better save a run by playing safe and having OT ready to go, and again in a fight like E4S you want both tanks to be top aggro as mechs like Blue knockback-minibusters target those in particular.

[Maeka]

I wouldn't advise that personally. A recurring theme I've been having in E4S PUGS is MT dies due to being greedy in the first EE (slow) and due to the OT not setting up stance the highest dps not only eats the first auto but also eats the orange stack (resulting in a domino effect). If the OT had stance it could salvage that by eating the auto and living enough to survive orange and be able to set up mitigation.

If tank stance OT has no chance in hell over taking aggro then there is no reason to not have it on. Some people are lazy and don't want to, but with how strong voke is and how enmity is this expac it's best to keep it on as there won't be an issue.

Because lbr people goof up and you can always better save a run by playing safe and having OT ready to go, and again in a fight like E4S you want both tanks to be top aggro as mechs like Blue knockback-minibusters target those in particular.

I suppose in Savage, perhaps?

But the OP is talking about PUGs, which I assume he's talking about Normal Trial Roulettes. (EDIT: Re-read the OP and ok they're talking about Alliance Raids, but still.)

If you want to go PUG a Savage... um... You're far braver than I, lol.

[Noitems]

I suppose in Savage, perhaps?

But the OP is talking about PUGs, which I assume he's talking about Normal Trial Roulettes. (EDIT: Re-read the OP and ok they're talking about Alliance Raids, but still.)

If you want to go PUG a Savage... um... You're far braver than I, lol.

Even then, core fundamental value of tanking as both MT/OT is to hold aggro and not let the dps/heals become a target for the boss due to enmity. That's the reason they had all the tools back in 3.x and 4.x like diversion and lucid, to make tanks have an easier time holding aggro. The only made tanks lives easier by removing those options and reinforcing tank aggro through mastery and stance, that's still no real excuse to let heals/dps eat a hit that isn't needed.

[Alaeacus]

I don't always have tank stance on when off-tanking but I usually Focus Target the main tank and Stance/Provoke very early.

Your problem probably isn't with offtanks not having good aggro built. Most offtanks, especially in 24-mans, just space out and do something like watch Netflix while they play. They don't even pay attention and they don't care to. Half of them have no rotation and are basically auto-attacking (I've sat and watched them many times).

Either that or they power-leveled through PotD/HoH and play like they are a dps.

It's so easy to grab aggro as a tank, I've come to the conclusion that most tanks aren't even trying. Even WHEN they have tank stance on, a lot of times they stand with all the DPS and are constantly fighting me for aggro, cleaving the group in the process.

[ForteNightshade]

I suppose in Savage, perhaps?

But the OP is talking about PUGs, which I assume he's talking about Normal Trial Roulettes. (EDIT: Re-read the OP and ok they're talking about Alliance Raids, but still.)

If you want to go PUG a Savage... um... You're far braver than I, lol.

Normal trials aren't nearly threatening enough for this to matter. I can survive several autos from Garuda or even Titan (normal). It's only in EX and Savage where this would ever be an issue. And the solution is the OT should monitor their aggro and turn off stance if needed or simply Shirk.