Recent Developments of TOS Actions Taken

[MrKusakabe]

If you think someone is a jerk, tell them off, block them and go do you.

This is something I do not really understand. I mean, I read the words but the intention behind is really weird. Why would I want to "tell off" bad behaviour and block them rather then getting them off the game for their misbehaviour? It is not my job to parent nasty players without any force and tools in hands. Why would that guy or gal run around and need to be "told off" by many, many players meanwhile because nobody is taking action? Reporting in itself s NOT a bad thing.
This is a terrible lack of courage (I can't think of a less serious word). I rather hand over the case to the GMs who have the tools and and power and a different viewpoint of the whole matter than the two involved parties. Which is absolutely preferred.
If it's nothing to worry about, nothing will happen. If it's really a bad behaviour, actions are taken. Just walking off is neither a good idea in real life nor in this game.

...or you can become overly upset and incapable of reacting, relying on GMs to come in an fix ti for you.

That is their job, and as said, I rather have a third, neutral party judging. You want to have some sort of verbal backyard brawl like Ronnie Pickering to "fix it yourself", but I hand the case over and mind my business instead of getting into verbal fights with the perps.

[Melichoir]

This just like victim blaming to me, your basically saying that you can be as unpleasant as you like to people as it's their fault they got offended just honestly is a pretty abhorrent view point. Just learn some self control and don't be a vile unpleasant person

The issue with the 'victim blaming' is that it is designed to remove agency from people broadly and treat them as children incapable of dealing with discomfort. Yes there are jerks in the world and they will say and do things at times that arent great. You can deal with it and address those issues in a way you see fit, or you can become overly upset and incapable of reacting, relying on GMs to come in an fix ti for you. Mind you, at that piont the damage is done and even with banning/addressing it, you are already 'injured'. So the GM banning someone doesnt change that discomfort you experience. Its not preventative, its reactive after the fact. Only way to make it preventative is to be draconian in how you deal with player interaction - something Im not for.

It's not abhorrent to think people are stronger than they give themselves credit for and are more or less capable to addressing most of lifes issues themselves. If were discussing targeted sustained harassment where the perp uses loop holes or work arounds to get around you dealing with them, thats another subject and in those cases things have to addressed case by case.

Beyond that, it still comes back to what defines unpleasant and vile, because again, that is subjective. As an example, if someone tells me "Hey, you should be using 'x' for 'y'" I dont take that as an affront, but there are players who do. I also know that sometimes people say things bluntly that come off as mean spirited when its simply a case of poor word choices or awkward social interactions. So instead of becoming hurt and offended I just ask for clarity and decide from there. But I digress again.

This is something I do not really understand. I mean, I read the words but the intention behind is really weird. Why would I want to "tell off" bad behaviour and block them rather then getting them off the game for their misbehaviour? Why would that guy or gal run around and need to be "told off" by many, many players because nobody is taking action? Reporting in itself s NOT a bad thing.

This is a terrible lack of courage (I can't think of a less serious word). I rather hand over the case to the GMs who have the tools and and power and a different viewpoint of the whole matter than the two involved parties. Which is absolutely preferred.

If it's nothing to worry about, nothing will happen. If it's really a bad behaviour, actions are taken. Just walking off is neither a good idea in real life nor in this game.

Simple. Because youre proactively dealing with a nuisance instead of insisting higher authorities deal with it for you. When you appeal to authority regarding uncomfortable interactions, they will inevitably go to the easiest option and lay down ground work to impose that easiest option. In this case, simple solution would be "Instant suspensions for any and all derogatory language." Worded broadly enough that they can will it upon any and all interactions so long as they feel it offends another sensibilities. While this would be the extreme end result, it only takes enough players to demand GMs be more proactive to move us along that line. And when it gets there in some approximation, its not gonna be good for anyone. It becomes, in the end, a war of attrition - he who reports first wins. So you keep your mouth shut or you are the one doing the reporting to get the other guy first. If you become afraid of offering advice or saying anything, youre gonna not talk. It becomes toxic for the player base broadly.

Beyond that, no reporting isnt bad broadly. There are times and places for it. Sustained harassment, as an example, is such a reason. However, most player interactions can be resolved by the two players sorting things out themselves in some manner. Again, there are lines to be crossed, and its a matter of where we set those lines. I do not think that the bar is placed so low that minor interactions that should be shrugged off or dealt with amongst people arent happening.

[tdb]

Mind you, at that piont the damage is done and even with banning/addressing it, you are already 'injured'. So the GM banning someone doesnt change that discomfort you experience. Its not preventative, its reactive after the fact.

It does prevent the offender from making anyone else's playtime miserable, for the duration of the ban. Locking up a murderer in prison won't undo the murder either, but at least they won't murder anyone else.

While I would prefer people to be able to resolve things by talking, there are some out there who view their fellow players as basically bots to facilitate their dungeon runs and won't listen to reason.

[jameseoakes]

The issue with the 'victim blaming' is that it is designed to remove agency from people broadly and treat them as children incapable of dealing with discomfort. Yes there are jerks in the world and they will say and do things at times that arent great. You can deal with it and address those issues in a way you see fit, or you can become overly upset and incapable of reacting, relying on GMs to come in an fix ti for you. Mind you, at that piont the damage is done and even with banning/addressing it, you are already 'injured'. So the GM banning someone doesnt change that discomfort you experience. Its not preventative, its reactive after the fact. Only way to make it preventative is to be draconian in how you deal with player interaction - something Im not for.

It's not abhorrent to think people are stronger than they give themselves credit for and are more or less capable to addressing most of lifes issues themselves. If were discussing targeted sustained harassment where the perp uses loop holes or work arounds to get around you dealing with them, thats another subject and in those cases things have to addressed case by case.

Beyond that, it still comes back to what defines unpleasant and vile, because again, that is subjective. As an example, if someone tells me "Hey, you should be using 'x' for 'y'" I dont take that as an affront, but there are players who do. I also know that sometimes people say things bluntly that come off as mean spirited when its simply a case of poor word choices or awkward social interactions. So instead of becoming hurt and offended I just ask for clarity and decide from there. But I digress again.

You argument feels really messed up, it seems to be that it's ok to abuse people as it's good for them. That seems to be the go to for bullies these days, they harass someone and then act all shocked when called out on it and then use the to further attack the person they are harassing.

[Melichoir]

It does prevent the offender from making anyone else's playtime miserable, for the duration of the ban. Locking up a murderer in prison won't undo the murder either, but at least they won't murder anyone else.

While I would prefer people to be able to resolve things by talking, there are some out there who view their fellow players as basically bots to facilitate their dungeon runs and won't listen to reason.

This assumption is that the person who offended or hurt you does this regularly. Yes, there are players who dehumanize their fellow players, and they are repeat offenders and the type to cross the line past basic negativity. Those players eventually do get the bans and suspensions. And to keep in line wiht your example - someone being a jerk to you is not the same as dealing with a murderer. Harsh punishments for harsh crimes is a necessity. A closer analogy to your murder example is someone whos using expletive slurs and sustained harassment of you. In that case, yes, report. But these are extremes.

You argument feels really messed up, it seems to be that it's ok to abuse people as it's good for them. That seems to be the go to for bullies these days, they harass someone and then act all shocked when called out on it and then use the to further attack the person they are harassing.

Youre misconstruing my point. Youre assuming Im saying "Oh it's ok to get bullied cause itll toughen you up!" This isnt my point. Im not saying its ok to be 'abused', but that people should have the ability to take care of themselves to a reasonable extent when you do run into jerks. It's more to say someone tried to victimize you, you didnt let it happen. If what they say has no effect on you, or you defend yourself from their negativity and keep above it, you are far better off for it. Being able to withstand those slings and arrows and keep yourself protected is a big part of self care and reliance.

Let me put it this way. You can either try and dodge, parry, or block that punch, or you can decide to get hit square in the face, feel bad, and then try tell someone about it afterwards. It's far better for you to try and not let the attack land, then just take it and report it afterwards.

[Vahlnir]

I don't really want to stir it up very much but I am going to say this piece anyway. People arguing about the terms of service being too vague or unclear has been going on since the beginning of online games, probably even further. And in my experience these people are usually rude, unhelpful, and conceited and really just want to know how much they can get away with before being punished.

Speaking for myself, this wasn't my aim at all. My concern was with their ability (or inability) to deal with RMT or other questionable behaviors. I just want to know what is acceptable or not regarding evidence of ToS breaches. Should I take a screenshot or record a video? If they are using Twitch streams to monitor player behavior, logic would dictate that they would accept such things. But the ToS doesn't state that, nor have GMs in the past. What SE says, or has said, on the matter and what they have done contradict one another.

But otherwise yeah, "don't be a jerk" is great advice for life.

[SieyaM]

Speaking for myself, this wasn't my aim at all. My concern was with their ability (or inability) to deal with RMT or other questionable behaviors. I just want to know what is acceptable or not regarding evidence of ToS breaches. Should I take a screenshot or record a video? If they are using Twitch streams to monitor player behavior, logic would dictate that they would accept such things. But the ToS doesn't state that, nor have GMs in the past. What SE says, or has said, on the matter and what they have done contradict one another.

But otherwise yeah, "don't be a jerk" is great advice for life.

In regards to the type of evidence they will accept, from what I have gathered what made this different was that is was not a recorded video or screenshot but a live stream of someone with their FFXIV name plainly in view while they were playing their own account, and their FFXIV profile had their stream name in it. It seems like odds of the evidence being forged or altered in this case were next to none.

[Vahlnir]

In regards to the type of evidence they will accept, from what I have gathered what made this different was that is was not a recorded video or screenshot but a live stream of someone with their FFXIV name plainly in view while they were playing their own account, and their FFXIV profile had their stream name in it. It seems like odds of the evidence being forged or altered in this case were next to none.

It is still 3rd party evidence, which we were told was unacceptable in the past. After a live stream is over, it is typically available for viewing somehow. I doubt that everyone handling this guy's ban watched it live. It had to be recorded for viewing to determine the punishment and severity. Don't get me wrong though, the guy had it coming. I won't even contest that.

[linay]

It is still 3rd party evidence, which we were told was unacceptable in the past.

Are you sure you're not confusing evidence from a third party with evidence from the player himself (as a verified user) via a third party platform?

[Yshtola]

It is still 3rd party evidence, which we were told was unacceptable in the past. After a live stream is over, it is typically available for viewing somehow. I doubt that everyone handling this guy's ban watched it live. It had to be recorded for viewing to determine the punishment and severity. Don't get me wrong though, the guy had it coming. I won't even contest that.

Where have you been these past 4 years? People on Twitter got plenty of warnings for displaying sexually explicit screenshots of their characters.