How do we feel about tank damage right now?

[ThomasMGP]

how do you see people's DPS?

[Billythepancake]

how do you see people's DPS?

You need a 3rd party program, so it's PC only.

[Billythepancake]

Oh no they aren't happy at all.

But then again, most those complaining aren't raiders are they so what does it matter? They are effective and 'balanced' now around the end game which is the only content that matters.

What it's boring on the climb up? Too bad that doesn't matter. Get to raids and have fun. I mean I find several classes unfun but hey they are breaking damage limits and all other jobs should feel bad for not being them.

How the community reacts to something and how the raid community reacts to something are two different things. And the raid community loves to remind us that only their content matters.

I'm an end game raider healer main, and I absolutely hate the current healer designs. Same with my healing partner. We play healers because we're good at it, and because we like the responsibility of healing, but we're over here, outside of ultimate content, bored out of our minds because we have nothing to do. Plenty have their reasons for healing in end game content, and a lot of them either dislike the changes, or vastly prefer the older designs but just roll with it.

Not to take away from the conversation here though, this isn't about healers, just wanted to say that.

[Shurrikhan]

So just change the game to reflect this demand and expectation for Damage. I'd leave, but I would expect people in this thread and elsewhere on the forums would find it to be a better game.

But you're still looking at only the symptoms. It's like someone's arm being in so much pain they'd rather it be removed than continue experiencing that pain, but instead of remedying the pain you assume the demand is that the person wants to be maimed.

It's not just one or the other; you can fix the problem itself, albeit with more work than simply lopping off that entire limb of gameplay and cauterizing it so it can never be reattached -- as you're been suggesting.

[Razard]

I'm still convinced you can make a boring or unfun class and the community will still flock to it if the Damage numbers are just right.

AST would like to know your location.

To be fair to him, the almost daily "SMN is Bad! TEAR THE ENTIRE CLASS DOWN AND REBUILD IT TO MY EXACT SPECIFICATIONS!" Threads seem to have died down when it was found that SMN is currently OP. So he might have a point.

[Shurrikhan]

To be fair to him, the almost daily "SMN is Bad! TEAR THE ENTIRE CLASS DOWN AND REBUILD IT TO MY EXACT SPECIFICATIONS!" Threads seem to have died down when it was found that SMN is currently OP. So he might have a point.

The gameplay/identity suggestions are still popping up, though. It's just that (1) part of the conversation has been diverted to SMN being somewhat overpowered and (2) many of the gameplay concerns were already dealt with.

[Razard]

The gameplay/identity suggestions are still popping up, though. It's just that (1) part of the conversation has been diverted to SMN being somewhat overpowered and (2) many of the gameplay concerns were already dealt with.

You forgot about the"Almost Daily" part of that statement. And those conversations you mentioned have slowed to a crawl. Whereas it was a constant stream from 5.0 til the beginning of 5.1. How many threads where labelled "Yet another SMN rework" again? xD

I just find the "Muhdentity" arguement tends to be silenced by the allure of being high on the tier list.

[Shurrikhan]

You forgot about the"Almost Daily" part of that statement. And those conversations you mentioned have slowed to a crawl. Whereas it was a constant stream from 5.0 til the beginning of 5.1. How many threads where labelled "Yet another SMN rework" again? xD

I just find the "Muhdentity" arguement tends to be silenced by the allure of being high on the tier list.

But, again, their numbers were increased almost entirely through added pet strength, largely fulfilling the requests of the "muh identity" crowd, and fixed their oGCD bloat / QoL issues.

It wasn't just a matter of numbers being overbuffed; the identity and gameplay issues were fixed as well.

So, why would there then be gameplay complaints in response to gameplay fixes?
Why would there be players begging for more of their power to come from their pets as a response to... more of their power coming from their pets?

[Razard]

But, again, their numbers were increased almost entirely through added pet strength, largely fulfilling the requests of the "muh identity" crowd, and fixed their oGCD bloat / QoL issues.

It wasn't just a matter of numbers being overbuffed; the identity and gameplay issues were fixed as well.

So, why would there then be gameplay complaints in response to gameplay fixes?
Why would there be players begging for more of their power to come from their pets as a response to... more of their power coming from their pets?

I feel we are talking past each other.

If you read the actual suggestions made in those threads most of them,, like removing egis and replacing them with Demi's (which I disagree because it makes the Demi Summons less unique and impressive), where not addressed. And, honestly, I hope they never are.

The point is that it seems that being high on the tier list does seem to have quite a high mitigative effect on people's complaints. I used the example of SMN but this has been a recurring thing since the games inception. Then they turn around and wonder why the game is like it is.

Maybe these players should look inward and ask themselves "Did I cause this?"

[MerlinCross]

Day 1 when healer mains were hitting lvl 80. That's litteraly all I heard from my static healers and other healers in game besides some WHMs realizing they had something all other healers should have... an offensive skill that is proc'd baised on doing their jobs of healing.
So if you are trying to and guess what healers were complaining about just on this forum on day 1, or even week one you gotta be paying more attention bud.

Oh that's all I heard from the FC I have was about the healers being gutted.

Online, I saw so many complaints about damage and blood lily and "Oh woe as us when it comes to damage" though. Small sample size, I'll grant you but the fact enough healers cared about their damage instead of their healing was quite a sight to see bud.

AST would like to know your location.

Next to the MNK gym, trying to ask them why they continue to play such a janky job.

We play healers because we're good at it, and because we like the responsibility of healing, but we're over here, outside of ultimate content, bored out of our minds because we have nothing to do.

Ah, there's your problem. You aren't doing the "Content that matters" and the "Content you are balanced around". Go do it and maybe you'll have fun and if you don't well the community will tell you you're doing something wrong, how can you not have fun in the current content that matters? Inconceivable.

But you're still looking at only the symptoms. It's like someone's arm being in so much pain they'd rather it be removed than continue experiencing that pain, but instead of remedying the pain you assume the demand is that the person wants to be maimed.

It's not just one or the other; you can fix the problem itself, albeit with more work than simply lopping off that entire limb of gameplay and cauterizing it so it can never be reattached -- as you're been suggesting.

And yet...., yes that's what the community seems to be asking for. No, seriously, lemme see if I can put this clearly.

FF14's design when it comes to fights rewards pushing damage as much as possible due to the scripted nature of the fights, and how easy it is to keep up time on said damage.

However, any attempt to change or suggest changes with this is met with scorn by the community. It's either dropped as a "Never use/do", cheesed so it might as well not matter, or if based around abilities/damage, deemed a "Always bring" and that Job is an instant lock into every fight.

So the community sits; talking about damage, posting FFlogs, trying to squeeze out as much damage as possible. Devs see this and cater to that; easier rotations, more burst, removal of non damaging abilities, and more fights based around pumpping all that damage out. Which in turn gets the community to push for more ways to optimize damage. Not asking for "other things besides damage to do" just more damage.

Look at some of the suggestions we've had in this topic earlier. The bringing back of Aggro, giving Tanks more things to do in battle, making the fights less scripted and so on; usually met with scorn and disgust.

Square can change the game to mix things up, to go and make Tanks, Healers, and even supports, more interesting. TO give them other contributions to deal with. Whether or not the Community accepts this is another issue.

Shurrikhan we both agree on some of the same things. The gameplay now is just bleh and boring seems to be one. And that the gameplay should change to something more interesting is another.

However, I'm of the opinion the community is too far down the rabbit hole of "Damage matters" to be forced into a new playstyle such a change in gameplay would result in. These topics tend to be less about "We want more damage" and more about "We want more contribution". But the only contribution that people will accept is more damage it seems as that's what the game is designed around and trying to change that results in arguments against it.

So if the Devs have a community that will not appreciate a new play-style with new non damage focus abilities/mechanics, what's the point in making it? Better to cater to what the community seems to ask/expect. Which is getting more damage.

I simply just ask that we skip to the end result rather than waste another couple expansions of trimming abilities and focusing on the damage expectation so we can get it over with now, and save myself a couple subs worth of cash. Cause every expansion Tanks and Healers seem to be pushed into more damage or losing out on what makes them what they are. And I ask for some of this to be returned or different things to be put in, or just some fun to be given back, I'm met with "You play content that doesn't matter" or "Oh Fun and Balanced are two different things" or "Wow you were a bad X huh", and all other comments that feel like put downs. Here, reddit, elsewhere; just that I'm wrong for asking for something besides damage.

So instead of asking for different contributions, I've decided to jump ahead and ask for what everyone seems to want and care about. Nothing but damage and for the game to focus and cater to that.