Geomancer and Chemist - A Better Idea

[Vendalwind]

I'm not asking for an entire design document, I'm asking for literally any specifics about what the job actually does or how it plays.

but you have a habit of jumping on anything thats not fully developed without a positive thought...
So you could say you aren't asking for an entire design document, but if its anything short of an entire design document you have been creating flaws out of thin air and only looking at the downsides of peoples ideas rather than the positives.

You're talking in circles and ignoring my responses. I already explained that 14's AST is related to Astrologer from FF Tactics in name only. Stop acting like they magically conjured another dozen or so additives for it from thin air, when you know they just renamed Time Mage.

...what? its closer to zodiac styled than time mage.... Also Astro wasn't really a class in FFT. one character could use astro and he wasn't even recruit able. Astro is probably the most unique class to FFXIV currently as the tactics astro was more of a shield mage/status support unit. If it was a time mage in any sense it would have
Haste
Haste 2
Slow
Slow 2
Stop
Don't Move
Float
Reflect
Quick
Demi
Demi 2
Meteor
Teleport. Which are all iconic time mage abilities.

AST has almost no connection to the time mage style.
Point: AST has a less of a connection to time mage than to chemist, and AST is only connected to chemist in its current form by the devs original design issues that you mentioned in your first post.
Time mage would be very difficult to get right tho in this game for many many reasons.

The ASTs moves that look similar to clocks are horoscope wheels. Even redraw is not actually a clock but an array of cards spinning out from the Astro's arm. The only aspects of AST even slightly related to time are lightspeed, and diurnal vs nocturnal sect i spose.

The unique job resources are built resources that determine the flow of the rotation. MP is used as a spender and limiter for each job that uses it, so that they're not just reliant on CDs for their strongest heals. In the hands of a WHM it keeps them from just spamming Cure II/III, Medica II and Raise, and encourages them to use more efficient forms of healing like Cure and the Afflatus line. Also, jobs in other roles don't have their spender resource gain determined by an unavoidable gear stat -- partly because TP was removed.

Spender AND limiter. so couldn't a separate resource with more unique qualities be developed for chemist that works as both a limiter and spender? IE very simply a charge system of components where multiple components are used for a single cast. You could even make the charge speed of the components for this section of the class tied to piety if you can dispel disbelief for it.
Point being getting antsy about an alternate resource on a healer than MP is stupid. There are many other forms of resources that could have limiters imposed on them such that they would work similarly when overused.

Then why would it even have a ranged weapon.

Look, here's the problem: You are still arguing aesthetics and cosmetics as a response to lack of mechanics.

You are the only one requiring mechanics in this discussion.

It's not a problem. When designing something most people start with aesthetics and then work from there to discover how mechanics would allow those goals of class style to be achieved. If you aren't using aesthetics and playstyle for the basis of your class design what are you even making? You are still treating peoples creative ideas like trash just because they are opposed to your original statements and desires.

Also heck you could give it a chefs knife as they could also equip daggers in fft, and then you'd have a weapon they used to help prepare ingredients, wouldn't be my choice tho.

I'd just straight up give them a potion filled belt as their weapon where a single potion is drawn from the hip when unsheathed. (similar in uniqueness to how Monk weapons sometimes overtake the gloves cosmetics and stay on hands)

[Archwizard]

but you have a habit of jumping on anything thats not fully developed without a positive thought...

Half the theme of the thread is literally "I've yet to hear a fully-formed thought about implementing Chemist besides 'make it a healer'."
If you come into the thread and give a half-baked thought in response, that's on you for missing the point of the thread.

Also Astro wasn't really a class in FFT. one character could use astro and he wasn't even recruit able.

I'm not having this argument on two completely contradictory fronts, if you and Duelle want to conflict with one another then talk to each other, not me.

If it was a time mage in any sense it would have

Hold that thought for a moment.

I point out that Chemist isn't Chemist if it lacks connection to consumables or Mix -- its single most iconic and consistent skill -- and get flak for being too literal about a concept not really being Chemist without.
But Astrologian can't be based on Time Mage because it doesn't have a dozen or so specific spells? Including ranked skills?

Okay, sure, let's play that game. Just to examine your list: Lightspeed is the functional equivalent of a personal Haste (or as close as we'll get since Yoshi-P has already said we'll never get Haste, because a mobility buff of that size would be required for most group compositions and make the game too easy) and AST makes up for precise lack of Quick with other damage buffs, because while it used to give Speed buffs most jobs avoid it like the plague; Demi is just a rename of Gravity which Astrologian already has; you're conveniently leaving out Regen (which is the entirety of Diurnal Sect) and that Nocturnal Sect is entirely based on barriers (even if they're not named Reflect and Shell, which aren't specific to Time Mage either); Float is... impractical? At best? for most raid content; BLM already has Teleport (Aetherial Manipulation) and Meteor (LB3); and the other moves are all CCs.

While I have my own thoughts about CC in this game, this isn't the thread for those. For now we'll ignore that Repose makes most of those listed redundant, and just say there's a reason even Repose isn't cast in most dungeons.

AST is Time Mage through the filter of 14's demands.

Point being getting antsy about an alternate resource on a healer than MP is stupid.

I'm pointing out that the only reason to make an alternate resource to substitute MP is purely to claim the job doesn't use MP, even if the extra resource will just be a copy of MP only worse.
It's pedantic, not additive to gameplay.

If you say "Chemist shouldn't use MP because it's not magical", the onus is on you to explain how it should work otherwise while still being balanced against existing healers, not on me to accept that offhand.

You are the only one requiring mechanics in this discussion.

That.
Is.
The.
Literal.
Purpose.
Of this thread.

I ask for people to explain how they actually want the job to play, and the responses are about what weapon it uses and repeated dismissal of the concern that the mechanics are lacking.
This is exactly why I demonstrated in the OP that the job would be better-suited as a DPS: lack of forethought about its mechanics as an actual job, much less a healer.
Right now calling it "Chemist, but like, without consumables" means as much to me as calling it "Medic", or introducing a tank named "Sentinel" and DPS called "Ravager". Which come to think of it might be a really cool name for a Spellblade concept, actually...

Stop throwing things at the wall and talking about how the job is "iconic", and demonstrate to me why "Healer Job Concept" would be worth playing, much less asking the devs to add.

[Reynhart]

We’ll continue forward under the general assumption that, much as Bards and Machinists have functionally infinite ammo, Chemist wouldn’t actually be limited to effects related to consumables – although I would consider that the first nail in its coffin, considering the most basic and iconic element of the job would be entirely ignored in its creation.

Chemist could be limited by consumables, but not the same consumables that every job uses. Those specific consumables would be abilites, with their number of charges. Basically, your chemist would have 10 potions, 5 remedies, 8 ethers, 3 phoenix-downs, 1 elixir, etc...And, instead of refilling over time, you would have a backpack skill, that would refill all the charges. And the complexity of the job would be how you distribute all your item charges until the next backpack.

And yes (Take a sip), Mix would be used to consume several charges to make another effect. Like two charges of potions doing a mega-potion or two charges of phoenix down doing a mega-phoenix...

[Shurrikhan]

You are the only one requiring mechanics in this discussion.

Is that not the whole purpose of the OP -- to set the purpose for the thread that follows?

Wouldn't it be more outrageous to join a thread without intention to partake in the task the thread's creator has set forth?

That's not to say we can't argue with his premise, but we should at least be offering as much proof towards our point as he's presented for his, no? Sadly, to progress the argument at all, though, that means taking the one step further into at least attempting a prototype.

This thread's existence isn't going to preclude the possibility for a CHM healer if the devs already have decent ideas for it; at worst, it will simply indicate that some players feel that simply throwing another auxiliary mechanic atop the same universal healer base is not an acceptable product, let alone an unoriginal auxiliary mechanic.

[Archwizard]

Chemist could be limited by consumables, but not the same consumables that every job uses. Those specific consumables would be abilites, with their number of charges. Basically, your chemist would have 10 potions, 5 remedies, 8 ethers, 3 phoenix-downs, 1 elixir, etc...And, instead of refilling over time, you would have a backpack skill, that would refill all the charges. And the complexity of the job would be how you distribute all your item charges until the next backpack.

And yes (Take a sip), Mix would be used to consume several charges to make another effect. Like two charges of potions doing a mega-potion or two charges of phoenix down doing a mega-phoenix...

The problem with basing a job entirely off CDs is that eventually those CDs run out. Sure you have that backpack skill to recharge them, but if the mechanic is restricted by how often that's available, what if you're at a level when you don't have enough abilities to fill the time until it returns?

(As for the drinking game, only applies when the suggestion mentions cloning another job skill.)

[Reynhart]

The problem with basing a job entirely off CDs is that eventually those CDs run out. Sure you have that backpack skill to recharge them, but if the mechanic is restricted by how often that's available, what if you're at a level when you don't have enough abilities to fill the time until it returns?

What you'd have to make sure is that you'd always have the proper amount of abilites to do your basic focus, which is keeping the party alive. So, I'd say that the healing items and all their charges would be available pretty early. After that, you'd gain mix combinations that will help you optimize those charges and items to buff your party. And we can safely say that, most of the time, early levels are far less healing intensive, so you're more likely to not need all your items at low level.

In the end, you'd have to analyze real situations to adjust the potencies, number of charges, recast, etc...but as a concept, I think it could be interesting. And, since your healing skills would be abilities, you could have a healer with a real GCD rotation for its DPS.

[Archwizard]

What you'd have to make sure is that you'd always have the proper amount of abilites to do your basic focus, which is keeping the party alive. So, I'd say that the healing items and all their charges would be available pretty early. After that, you'd gain mix combinations that will help you optimize those charges and items to buff your party. And we can safely say that, most of the time, early levels are far less healing intensive, so you're more likely to not need all your items at low level.

In the end, you'd have to analyze real situations to adjust the potencies, number of charges, recast, etc...but as a concept, I think it could be interesting. And, since your healing skills would be abilities, you could have a healer with a real GCD rotation for its DPS.

Maybe, but it would also mean the job is only ideal to bring to fights where encounter mechanics fall within the number of charges you have per reload, and can be especially punishing if your co-healer can't pick up slack when your CDs run out.

I agree that you wouldn't need all your items at low level (same reason why CNJ gets Cure early but doesn't have Cure II until 30), but with a limited number of charges on even your basic heal you could potentially run out, especially if you keep on mixing to expend multiple charges. Not to mention the question of Raises, since limiting them to a charge system means you're hard-capped per fight -- I might accept that on a DPS (and for a while we did with RDM), but not for my healer if half our group gets killed.

[Reynhart]

but with a limited number of charges on even your basic heal you could potentially run out, especially if you keep on mixing to expend multiple charges.

It would not be very different from a bad healer burning its MP by overcuring and having to wait for Lucid Dream to be ready. You can't really conclude that a system is bad because some players won't be able to use it properly.

[Brandedblade]

Look, here's the problem: You are still arguing aesthetics and cosmetics as a response to lack of mechanics.



Surprised it took this long to get around to just saying "give them a hammer since MCH doesn't use one."

Considering the current design of the healers,whether or not we like it, are balanced around having a key set of abilities (namely the load out spread of their gcd spells) I would personally expect chemist to follow suit and just use non magical or magitek like aesthetics. So yeah, I would fully expect for a chemist healer to have a contradictory aesthetic like red mage does, would it be more interesting and fitting to throw them in aiming gear? Yes. Do I expect it considering how SE tries to balance its role? No.

As far as the hammer thing goes, it could work, scrappers from gw2 come to mind with that aesthetic (they do or did have a viable healing build last time I checked) My personal preference for a hammer healer would be a holy paladin/cleric type myself.

[Shurrikhan]

My personal preference for a hammer healer would be a holy paladin/cleric type myself.

Likewise. If something's wielding a hammer in time with a chem-based kit, I'd fully expect a front-line hit-and-run & storm-and-hold demolitions expert, rather than a... healer? Who would put so valuable a member up front if they're not capable of defending themselves? Give them plate and a steep measure of personal badassery in being able to fend off enemies for team benefit and then, sure, it makes sense, but that's... not a Chemist.

I'd much rather see weapons repeat (as they already have; both DRG and BLM have access to scythes; DRG, BLM, and WHM access to staves; SMN and SCH access to tomes; etc., etc.) than see a job placed in an unreasonable position.