Geomancer and Chemist - A Better Idea

[Shurrikhan]

[1] The aesthetic can definitely be made less incongruent with what we've seen of Garlemald so far, my descriptions were very specifically somewhat vague to keep things malleable. [2] Aside from that, which things do you think could use some refining/trimming? I'm all ears, and I really want to make this concept the best it can be.

Forums ate my post. Twice. So here goes, in shorter version...

[1] That's fair and probably for the best. We do want to offer a fair bit of variance, after all. I'm wishing now, even more than usual, that I possessed even the slightest tinge of artistic talent so I could try to relate some idea of what ranges of weapon designs I think could be varied yet congruent, and interesting without being impractical.

[2] I think I need to ask more about the weapon before I can fairly start, because that involves one of my core complaints, but there's also very little detail on it so far.

I've been imagining it as being capable of both (far-reaching) spray and use of projectile. I imagine the weapon itself would look something like a flamethrower in that it has a barrel from which fluid payload can be launched or added to another, and may be optionally ignited, electrified, or saturated with further aether, etc.. But I figure it would best also would hold, in cohesive fashion, a few other normally modular parts. Among these would be a way to (1) dispense the normal payload in burst via projectile, at range, perhaps through the use of a material cask produced inside the weapon itself or through some manner of "Shell" spell, meant in either case only to last until impact or near impact, or (2) launch an alternate payload summoned materially from some depository as with MCH devices.

The first -- if allowing the projectile 'bay', so to speak, to bank resources -- would make the projectiles' use would integral to typical gameplay as a sort of balancing/filtering system; after all, you'd effectively be filling it via the normal flow or by diverting some part or characteristic of the normal flow. This means it'd be tied whatever's normally going on, though perhaps as a foil to your purposes for your spray. For instance, you could purify your canister even when no useful target is present, or just continuously over time on toggle command, by flushing toxins into the projectile chamber, causing a particularly potent-to-enemies projectile while increasing the potency of your spray to allies (and perhaps decreasing its simultaneous damage to enemies, though you can always change how favorable the extremes should be for that, if at all). Such could be like a maintenance mechanic done right, in that it wouldn't just be maintaining a single optimal outcome, but always allowing preparation towards some strategic payoff.

The second would allow you more direct manipulation, similar to ammo types. You summon X, put in the gun, and can either launch it immediately at its full payload, or you can choose to filter it into your normal stuff for additional potency or X effect.

Or you could take both. Or whatever else; those are just spitball ideas.

The point is, though, that you have a highly technological job with at least a pretense of great ingenuity and complexity; the weapon that allows for all that must, if fully fleshed out, therefore hold a trove of mechanical possibilities to work from. I'd like to see that from the toolkit. The weapon is your base for everything. Start there. Rely not one bit on skill templates until you've maxed out the options inherent to your weapon and its likely accessories (e.g. a hip-attached chemical injector/ejector or whatever else).

[JanVanding]

I still think chemist is possible for one main reason

hear me out on this....

Rikku and VIIIs Junction system.

In Final Fantasy X, Rikku served the Chemist's role, being more a thief archetype that also had chemist skills.

This would lead for an interesting branch for Rogues as they get to also become a melee healer and they can base their skills around stealing from the enemy and using it to boost your Allies (think the Junction system from 8 where you draw abilities from enemies to stock or use, obviously GBR has draw in one form, you're using draw in another).

they could even tie it in with Al Mihgans being that they learned the ability to draw from the travelling GBRs/captured a Garlean Gunblade, studied the tech adapted it.

So you would have some healing and buffing skills which you can improve by effectively "stealing" (drawing) from the enemy and using the stolen Aether to buff your Allies and power up your heals.

Thoughts?

[Shurrikhan]

I still think chemist is possible for one main reason

hear me out on this....

Rikku and VIIIs Junction system.

In Final Fantasy X, Rikku served the Chemist's role, being more a thief archetype that also had chemist skills.

This would lead for an interesting branch for Rogues as they get to also become a melee healer and they can base their skills around stealing from the enemy and using it to boost your Allies (think the Junction system from 8 where you draw abilities from enemies to stock or use, obviously GBR has draw in one form, you're using draw in another).

they could even tie it in with Al Mihgans being that they learned the ability to draw from the travelling GBRs/captured a Garlean Gunblade, studied the tech adapted it.

So you would have some healing and buffing skills which you can improve by effectively "stealing" (drawing) from the enemy and using the stolen Aether to buff your Allies and power up your heals.

Thoughts?

That would seem more to indicate that... perhaps we never should have left behind the classes-as-mixable-skillsets design paradigm of 1.x (and instead just include Archery, Performance, Machinistry, Gunnery, Dancing, Chemistry, Thievery, Stealth Tactics, Shield-bearing, etc., with any given weapon class -- albeit at varying in-practice synergies), even if everything else should have been burned with caustic fire?

[ReiMakoto]

Just to point out, chemist could easily have a lore justified reason for why potion heals could cost mana despite not being "magical". The MCH Aethroconverter, draws in ambient aether and converts it to lightning/ fire aether for mch's to shoot, a similar mechanic could be used for a CHM "backback" which instead converts the CHMs personal aether into a substance used to make their potions. This could be a further balance mechanic, as you could make it so CHMs basic gcds don't cost mana unlike the other healers, but their healing is more mana intensive as a result. Pair this with the posibility of off global mudra esq mix with instant actual cast on the heal, which is bigger than other healers main spammable heal but has the aformentioned downsides. Another mechanical possibility is reduced range on using said instant potion to balance their instant nature (10y) outside of throw which is on a 15s cd.

[Leidiriv]

You definitely raise some good points with regards to the role actions and resource management on MED, though I made sure to put the Magiteknical Synthesis trait at the same level as you would normally unlock Swiftcast. Should I potentially also add clauses to that one for SpS and Surecast? With regards to the aesthetics thing, I don't necessarily agree, since MNK and RDM in particular would benefit from having an additional body on the field throwing out weaponskills for the phys damage.

Regarding the Solution spending, what would you recommend? Should I drop the cooldown of the various Solution spenders to be avout the same level as Clinical Trial? Should I drop the Solution amounts on MED's various GCDs to further encourage the Sprays and things like Holy Water? The thing about the Sprays spending the same resource was 100% intended though, to create tension in the kit based on GCD usage.

As for M-Elixir, I view it as being like Cure III is to the basic Medica for WHM. The latter's useful in a pinch if you absolutely need the lower MP cost, but the former's overall more efficient.

With regqrds to the DoTs, though, there's only really 2 DoTs that are used in ST combat (Debilitator and Lilith's Kiss). The Sprays just act like Flamethrower and Red/Inferno Fang is more like what Miasma II used to be for SCH.

Anyway, I'm glad you enjoyed it overall, and thanks for the detailed feedback!

Edit: I made a few balance changes that should overall make the kit flow better. I reduced the cooldowns of the Solution spenders and Experimental Reagent, reduced the Solutions generated by MED's tier 2 healing GCDs, and added a clause to Magiteknical Synthesis about Surecast and SpS (though ideally they'd both be merged into a single Speed stat). Also I doubled the maximum Feedback to make the Sprays more lenient overall.

[Archwizard]

Should I potentially also add clauses to that one for SpS and Surecast? With regards to the aesthetics thing, I don't necessarily agree, since MNK and RDM in particular would benefit from having an additional body on the field throwing out weaponskills for the phys damage.

One problem with the Magiteknical Synthesis trait is that, while it's introduced at the same level as Swiftcast, it ignores that Role Actions like Swiftcast and Surecast aren't affected by level-syncing (so they're available to the job while synced at level 1 after reaching the appropriate unsynced level for unlocking them, which would be automatic in keeping the trend following Heavensward) -- which is also the only reason to introduce such a trait at that level in the first place. I would recommend introducing it at level 1 instead, but then it goes to further illustrate the point about the change being largely cosmetic rather than technical.

You do have a point about Brotherhood and Embolden, but I would also remind you that Magical and Physical damage are not purely divided up by Spells and Weaponskills -- as illustrated by jobs like RDM, BRD and NIN, who deal Magical damage with Weaponskills, or BLU who does Physical damage with Spells -- but rather by the damage types themselves (Unaspected and Elemental for Magical, Slash/Blunt/Pierce for Physical). You could continue to have the job perform Physical damage without being weaponskills; however, I would also point out that by having such a disparity, there remains a strong possibility of MED being treated as mandatory for specific group compositions, or having their output be balanced around the presence of Physical-boosting DPS jobs.

Regarding the Solution spending, what would you recommend?

I have to wonder if perhaps one way to do it would be to treat Solutions as the alternate resource, having their count be part of the MED's UI instead of stacking on allies?

As for M-Elixir, I view it as being like Cure III is to the basic Medica for WHM. The latter's useful in a pinch if you absolutely need the lower MP cost, but the former's overall more efficient.

I brought it up because M-Elixir didn't have a listed MP cost, and with all of its other stats being the same as M-Potion except for a higher potency and range, it appears as both more efficient and a straight upgrade.

The Sprays just act like Flamethrower and Red/Inferno Fang is more like what Miasma II used to be for SCH.

Maybe I was confused when leveling SCH, but weren't there some levels where Miasma II was worthwhile in single-target (particularly over Ruin II for weaving, since the DoT was considered useless in AoE)?
... Possibly my fault for having leveled WHM first.

[Pyitoechito]

Chemist doesn't have to be an MP-free healer or lack cast times. I don't expect the devs to create a healer that isn't dependent on mana and casting. Chemist could take a note from Noctis in FF15. In said game, potions we're actually just energy drinks that Noctis infuses with magic to give them healing properties. Chemists could take low-quality potions (because it would be easier to explain their infinite supply of them) and infuse them with aether to make them as potent as other healers' spells.

Now we have established how CHM could potentially rely on MP and have cast times.

Mix has been mentioned, but I do believe it would be a fun mechanic to implement on a healer. It would likely be a halfway between NIN Mudras and AST cards. Like NIN, it would involve pressing oGCDs in a certain order to get desired outcomes (like a healing puddle an explosive), but like AST the oGCDs can be done between GCDs. This would not be like DNC (where the outcome never changes, just the order of the steps) or fully like AST (where the outcome is random).

To make mixing even more unique by being able to store multiple mixtures, rather than having to use the completed mix immediately. Say we have 2-3 oGCDs for mixing, and each variety of completed mixture also has it's own action slot. There's no "start mix" or "end mix" action, mixing begins with the first "mix action" and ends after a third "mix action" is used. This would probably be handled like Mudra actions and have all mix actions share charges. The job gauge would show mixing progress and the order of mix actions. Once a mix completes successfully the corresponding action that was created will gain a charge, and multiple charges can be stored.

In this way, CHM would be somewhat like SCH where they are proactively managing their healing kit to prepare for upcoming mechanics (SCH does this with barrier health and skills like Excog). Whether that would be a fun or interesting way of creating a healer... shrug.

[Leidiriv]

My bad on M-Elixir, it was meant to have a 1300 MP cost, not sure why that didn't end up getting in there.

So, your idea for the Solutions is to make them more reminiscent of Combo Points in a sense? Ican get behind that, it'd still require some prep-work but be less fiddly. I'd have to change the Solution values on the abilities for sure, but it could definitely work.

Also, refarding Magiteknical Synthesis, the lowest a dungeon will ever sync you to is 18, with Sastasha. Guildhests might not be quite as forgiving in that regard, but the 2 Guildhests where you wouldn't have Magiteknical Synthesis are so easy I'm not even sure if you have to press a heal during them or not lol.

And lastly, regarding Red/Inferno Fang and Miasma II, SCH did use Miasma II as a weaving tool because Ruin II was just that pathetic back in the day. I really liked that paradigm of your AoE having a purpose for mobility and all that, so I co-opted it for MED.

[Archwizard]

Also, refarding Magiteknical Synthesis, the lowest a dungeon will ever sync you to is 18, with Sastasha. Guildhests might not be quite as forgiving in that regard, but the 2 Guildhests where you wouldn't have Magiteknical Synthesis are so easy I'm not even sure if you have to press a heal during them or not lol.

Sure, but there is other synced content, like PotD or FATEs, which can get you lower than even Sastasha.

[Leidiriv]

Sure, but there is other synced content, like PotD or FATEs, which can get you lower than even Sastasha.

Ah yeah, I forgot PotD somehow >.>

FATEs are kind of the same situation as the first two Guildhests though. I guess it couldn't hurt to move MS earlier though.