Geomancer and Chemist - A Better Idea

[Archwizard]

So, Geomancer and Chemist (or some variation like Salve-maker) are two of the most popular suggestions for a fourth Healing job.
Now, this thread isn’t going to harp on about how “the devs should focus on balancing the existing healers and on making healing more engaging before they add a fourth” or “why do we even need a fourth in the first place” – personally I think having the dev team take the time to design a fourth healer would provide an excellent opportunity to examine the existing ones for what works and what doesn’t, much as we saw with the tank rebalance when GNB was added.
No, this thread is about critically examining Geomancer and Chemist as suggestions, specifically. More accurately, why I think they would be terrible picks for a future healing job, and why I am tired of seeing them lazily recycled as half-baked suggestions.

So why is this thread in the DPS Subforum instead of Healing? Simple: I’d much rather see them as support-oriented DPS jobs. Don’t worry, I’ll go into that on the way.

Put your pitchforks away and let me explain...

Geomancer (GEO)

I suppose a large part of the reason players find Geomancer a likely “healer” addition is because of the lore established for it in the Astrologian questline. Throughout Stormblood we follow the exploits of Kyokuho, a Hingashi Geomancer who seeks to learn Sharlayan astromancy to improve his own understanding of geomancy in defense of Kugane; frequent allusions are made towards the two arts being two sides of the same coin, where Astrologians draw power from the stars above and Geomancers from the star below. I suppose it follows for many that with such parallels, they would have similar toolkits… right?

That’s about where the similarities stop, however. From what we see of Kyokuho in action, his Qi spells better resemble Eorzean conjury, at least insofar as being able to cast Earth and Wind magic that function like Stone and Aero. However, we never see him perform any actual acts of healing – perhaps in part because that would be redundant for a Healer questline, or perhaps because the capabilities of Geomancer as a playable job haven’t yet been delved into by the dev team.

Not to state the obvious, but there’s a very simple reason I believe Geomancer would make a terrible healer addition: Given the visible similarities to Conjurer, as a healer it would most likely heal like a Conjurer, if not a White Mage. That on its own isn’t necessarily a bad thing – we know the Conjurer design works, sort of, so in theory it would just need an extra resource that isn’t Lilies – but the problem comes about in that it brings nothing unique to the table in that regard that couldn’t also/instead be argued as a skill for White Mage. Imagine the uproar if they chose to reintroduce Stoneskin in another healer's hands, without justification of why it couldn't just go back to its original owner, or how much difficulty they would have avoiding a recycle of Asylum.
The parallels between the two make the addition of Geomancer as a separate healer redundant and a complete waste of development time and resources at best (which a lot of people seem to treat as if it’s infinite, even consciously knowing it isn’t), and would create a potential danger of gutting the existing job at worst. Same argument for Time Mage when we already have Astrologian.

However, these parallels don’t mean that Geomancer would be a waste to create provided its tools were used in a unique manner, such as a separate role. Geomancer would be an excellent opportunity to delve into the uses of offensive elemental magic that White Mage has distanced itself from, particularly with its emphasis on Holy spells with Shadowbringers.
Ever wonder why White Mage never uses Water attacks? Well, regardless of whatever lore explanation you have about the Sixth Umbral Calamity or your headcanons about the elemental typing of Cure spells, the truth is that an expansive damage toolkit is considered unnecessary for a Healing job, which is why every healer has the same 3 basic attacks. If a healer preoccupied themselves with a rotation of any complexity, they might find themselves interrupted mid-rotation when they’re forced to do their job and react to large bursts of damage; we already have enough healers greeding out Glares and Broils as their DPS die.
In the hands of a dedicated DPS job, however, the weaving of multiple elemental spells would not only be opportune, but flat-out expected. A Caster DPS Geomancer could not only use the Water attacks we’ve yet to see in the hands of players, but even practical advancements of the same elements like Flood, Quake, Tornado or even volcanic Eruptions, animations for which are already in the game.

This is also backed by both the lore of the Geomancer and its history throughout the series. Geomancy is based on the real world Chinese art of Feng Shui, which uses bells to dispel negative energy and subdue evil spirits – exactly the same way Kyokuho utilizes his art to protect Kugane from angry spirits, and the way Geomancers of The Swallow’s Compass dungeon use theirs to command elemental constructs and repel invaders.
Throughout the Final Fantasy series, Geomancer has been primarily a damage-oriented job, with very rare and situational support elements. The only iteration of “Geomancer” that could be considered a healer would be Aerith from FF7, a title which doesn’t actually assign jobs to its characters; Aerith was considered a Geomancer during the development due to her drawing power from the planet, but almost all of her unique abilities (including Holy) have since been accepted as and become synonymous with White Magic – to the point White Mages literally summon her iconic segmented staff while casting their Level 3 Limit Break in FF14.
Otherwise, Geomancer’s abilities are entirely oriented towards drawing power from the weather or battlefield to inflict elemental damage, placing traps to harm enemies, and occasionally (as in FF11) placing totems to buff allies. Even without the situational benefit of the “Terrain” command, there’s plenty of functional inspiration to draw from, like creating fields of periodic damage or support effects. Why, you could even use Y'shtola's Spiritual Ray as a Limit Break!

If astromancy is used to alter fate to benefit the Astrologian’s allies, it follows that even a parallel art could be used for an inverse purpose – to direct the misfortune of enemies.

Chemist (CHM)

Ah yes, the true elephant in the room. Unlike Geomancer – which has a history as a damage job – Chemist’s history has primarily been as a support-oriented job, and was even one of the most powerful healers in the Tactics games. “Boy, Archwizard, you’re gonna have a hard time convincing me it’s not a healer.”

Ah, but I never said I had to convince you it’s not a healer, just that it would be a terrible healer in FF14. That, my friends, is a completely different beast.

Chemist is best known for two particular abilities: enhancing the effectiveness of consumable items they use, and Mix, the ability to combine consumables for unique or more potent effects.
We’ll continue forward under the general assumption that, much as Bards and Machinists have functionally infinite ammo, Chemist wouldn’t actually be limited to effects related to consumables – although I would consider that the first nail in its coffin, considering the most basic and iconic element of the job would be entirely ignored in its creation.

From what I’ve seen perusing the all-too-many threads suggesting Chemist, its main draws are thus:

• A non-magical healer that uses pharmaceutical science, and maybe even technology!
• A potion-throwing instant/non-MP healer!
• Use Mix to heal or buff allies!

And that is as far as 97% of those threads go with the design. You can literally make a drinking game out of these threads: just take a swig every time someone suggests implementing Mix as a variation on NIN Mudras, AST Cards or DNC Steps. Finish the bottle in the rare case they pull out cloning some other implemented job’s mechanic, rather than suggesting… anything remotely unique.

Here’s the thing: “A potion-throwing healer” is an aesthetic. It dictates the particle effects on your abilities and little else. An aesthetic alone is not enough to design or balance a job, but next to none of the threads that use the “Chemist = healer” buzzwords actually give any in-depth consideration on its gameplay; they mostly just seem to suggest Chemist for lack of a better idea on a fourth healer.
A fully instant or non-MP healing job would be wildly imbalanced, most likely overpowered. A “non-magical” healing job would either have to facilitate the creation of a subcategory of Disciple of War with its own role actions and unique gearing from other healers or, more likely, just be coded as a magical healer anyway to use the same stats on gear, particularly with regards to fight mechanics that diminish healing effects or silence spellcasting.
Put those two in the coffin and you got… nothing.
Frankly the absolute lack of consideration towards implementation is their downfall, especially when players instantly assume it must be possible to balance such insanity, that it’s just not their job to balance their suggestions, and that such underwhelming suggestions are just as valid and deserving of consideration as more practical ones that did put the time and thought in.

The real kicker is, the devs have tried! Yoshi-P and Koji-Fox have each gone on record in interviews and Live Letters that they intended to implement Chemist as a gun-toting, potion-throwing healer with Heavensward. However, it was scrapped due to balance difficulties (particularly including Mix), which led to it being split into Machinist (gun-toting tech-xpert) and Astrologian (card “mixing” healer).

Look it up.

So, with the premises that Chemist’s method of healing would be imbalanced and Mix is lacking in creative, unique and functional suggestions, we come back to my opening thesis: That Chemist would be better implemented as a support-oriented DPS job, if as a full job at all.
The idea of “a non-magical job that throws chemical concoctions in the thick of combat” could easily be used as a premise for a Ranged DPS job, tossing grenades, flasks of flammable oils or corrosive toxins. Classic consumable damage items (like Blue Fangs, Arctic Winds, Holy Water, etc) could be treated as basic attacks; Mix then could be treated as a resource system generated and regularly deployed through the course of one’s rotation, rather than as a cooldown like Divination or Steps – every third or fourth skill as a Mix effect, with interactions between various Mix effects to dictate the flow of the rotation at large.
Chemist isn’t lacking for potential damage skills in that regard either, just look at Rikku from FF10, whose Overdrives offer a ridiculous number of bombs, buffs and elemental damage effects through the Mix system.

And of course, much like DNC’s Curing Waltz or BRD’s Warden’s Paean, there would still be room for a Chemist to throw the occasional healing effect under the Ranged role. Might even be able to make the argument for them to get their own Cure or Raise skill.

I’m saying neither that this is the only or best way to do it, of course, but to my mind the only other way to make Mix “unique” would be to have Chemist implemented as a Limited job, or just accept that Alchemist is the closest we’ll get to the potion-tossing fantasy.

TL;DR:
Geomancer should be a Caster DPS, because WHM does healing better.
Your bottle-throwing acid trip would be better off as a Ranged DPS.

[Duelle]

No, this thread is about critically examining Geomancer and Chemist as suggestions, specifically. More accurately, why I think they would be terrible picks for a future healing job, and why I am tired of seeing them lazily recycled as half-baked suggestions.

I'll start by saying that something's gonna have to give. The FF roster of jobs is very short on potential healers, as most concepts aside from White Mage have focused on dealing damage. As such, a known job being retooled to fit the role of healer is not outside the realm of possibility (in fact, I dreaded the devs doing this to RDM for that very reason).

Geomancer

Geomancy could be treated as one of those cases where similar ideas came about in two different locations despite no connections between either. Man's relation to the land and the elements may have developed one way in Gridania and another in the Far East (kind of like the notion that swords and armor were developed by different cultures in different ways because of available materials and other factors).

The alternative would be a missing link between both approaches to dealing with the elements, which also has a good amount of mileage. This is, of course, assuming we want to focus on the land/spirits aspect, as opposed to the feng shui/fortune aspect (which, as far as I can tell, is a FFXI thing).

I suppose it follows for many that with such parallels, they would have similar toolkits… right?

Within a hypothetical healing role? Not necessarily. A good while before Stormblood was announced, I toyed with using really early conjuring (like, as soon as people started moving out of Gelmorra) as the aforementioned missing link between Conjurers as we know them and Geomancers as I suggested them, with some very basic similarities between them but both healers growing in completely different directions (CNJ/WHM being focused on direct healing and purification, GEO calling on the elements to enhance and protect; admittedly, I based that idea on WoW's resto shaman).

However, these parallels don’t mean that Geomancer would be a waste to create provided its tools were used in a unique manner, such as a separate role. Geomancer would be an excellent opportunity to delve into the uses of offensive elemental magic that White Mage has distanced itself from, particularly with its emphasis on Holy spells with Shadowbringers.

This point I'll grant you, as FFXI's Geomancer proved you can given them distinct uses of elemental magic, which could be developed further with additional mechanics.

Chemist is best known for two particular abilities: enhancing the effectiveness of consumable items they use, and Mix, the ability to combine consumables for unique or more potent effects.

Let's not forget FFT's Item User/アイテム士, which is the core of some of the idea's I've seen for Chemist. Limiting yourself to Mix just because it was in older FFs is not a good idea in the long run.

Chemist wouldn’t actually be limited to effects related to consumables

This is a no-brainer seeing how classes built on consumables are a pain since you have to design the consumables and means with which to include crafters, on top of having to keep new additions and consumables in mind for future expansions.

although I would consider that the first nail in its coffin, considering the most basic and iconic element of the job would be entirely ignored in its creation.

This approaches the level of nonsense I've seen with regard to BLU ("if it can't have stupidly overpowered spells (Lv5 Petrify, Lv5 Death, Tail Screw, Doom) we can't call it a blue mage").

• A non-magical healer that uses pharmaceutical science, and maybe even technology!
• A potion-throwing instant/non-MP healer!
• Use Mix to heal or buff allies!

The first point is valid purely in terms of aesthetics. Everyone in the current healer roster waves their hands and makes sparkly lights restore the green bars. It'd be nice to have something that is different in concept.

The second point is difficult to justify now because they removed TP as a resource. Sadly, what comes with this is that if you design it around abilities you have a healer that never goes OOM. If you try to limit them via ability cooldowns, they risk becoming unreliable because if they have the wrong abilities on cooldown at the wrong time, the tank dies and/or the group wipes.

The third point doesn't have to be Mix copied 1:1 from the console games. Then again, Mix as a copy of Mudras is not what I would have in mind for Chemist.

Here’s the thing: “A potion-throwing healer” is an aesthetic. It dictates the particle effects on your abilities and little else. An aesthetic alone is not enough to design or balance a job, but next to none of the threads that use the “Chemist = healer” buzzwords actually give any in-depth consideration on its gameplay

It indeed is an aesthetic, and the idea behind it is not without merit. Having played an unconventional healer before (Merc/Bodyguard Bounty Hunter in SWTOR), I have an appreciation for healers with gameplay that does not involve waving your hands to heal wounds. I'm sure there are others who wouldn't mind a healer that was away from what we've seen with WHM/SCH/AST.

A “non-magical” healing job would either have to facilitate the creation of a subcategory of Disciple of War with its own role actions and unique gearing from other healers

This is one of the problems with Role Actions that are rarely considered. That said, if you told me to make it work while keeping everything else as is, I'd bunch it with the ranged (a healer with Head/Arm/Leg Graze and Peloton would be so OP /s ) and give it unique versions of what we consider baseline healer skills. So instead of getting Esuna, they get an ability called "Max Remedy". Instead of Repose they get "Tranquilizer Dart" (especially if they get some sort of firearm as their weapon). Instead of getting Rescue, they get "Propel" (animation would be CHM throwing a bottle filled with a volatile chemical under target party member; the bottle explodes and launches the party member to the CHM).

I do acknowledge this would involve bending some of the current design rules the devs follow.

more likely, just be coded as a magical healer anyway to use the same stats on gear, particularly with regards to fight mechanics that diminish healing effects or silence spellcasting.

Debuffs that reduce healing received can be made universal (if they aren't already). I haven't seen much in terms of mobs silencing players aside from overworld mobs with silence effects that have 5s cast times. The other things that interrupt, largely knock-backs and paralyzes, affect both actions and spells so that wouldn't make CHM a special case.

While coding CHM to work with "of healing" gear would require suspension of disbelief, I consider that an absolute last resort.

[Leidiriv]

Funnily enough, I just finished drafting a take on Chemist as a healer class right before I found this thread, and this Chemist doesn't even rely on the Mix mechanic.

[Archwizard]

I'll start by saying that something's gonna have to give. The FF roster of jobs is very short on potential healers, as most concepts aside from White Mage have focused on dealing damage. As such, a known job being retooled to fit the role of healer is not outside the realm of possibility (in fact, I dreaded the devs doing this to RDM for that very reason).

True, especially since many "healers" historically have just been variations on White Mage -- but on the other hand, it's not outside the realm of possibility for the devs to create an entirely original job (such as Gunbreaker, which in spite of its allusions to FF8 is still original).
Even in the event of them retooling a job, there's still boundless potential for them to create a unique toolkit. For instance, I've proposed creating a Necromancer healer before that focuses on draining and redistributing health, sacrificing minions, and temporarily afflicting allies with Undead statuses for benefits like life-leech and evasion.

The important thing to me is the creation of a unique job that's fun to play. A lot of the proposals for "Geomancer or Chemist healer" ignore, at the end of the day, that it's a game and what we have access to should be enjoyable to use, not just full of visual flair.

Geomancy could be treated as one of those cases where similar ideas came about in two different locations despite no connections between either. Man's relation to the land and the elements may have developed one way in Gridania and another in the Far East

My understanding is that, while they result in similar power sets, the CNJ and GEO's approaches to spirits are opposed. Conjurers work to pacify and appease the elementals of the Twelveswood, and contract them for power, aid, or resources; Geomancers repel and subjugate angry spirits around Hingashi and Othard, directing the energies within the land via spiritual mediums to do so.

the feng shui/fortune aspect (which, as far as I can tell, is a FFXI thing).

Not at all. Feng Shui has always been a part of the Geomancer job from its inception; its Japanese name is even "Feng Shui Soldier". This is why the job has used bells since FF3, a trend which continues in the instances it's seen here in 14 (granting, Kyokuho's looks more like a rattle, but it has jingle bells on it).

There is no "either/or" with regards to the Feng Shui and Land/Spirits aspect.

This approaches the level of nonsense I've seen with regard to BLU ("if it can't have stupidly overpowered spells (Lv5 Petrify, Lv5 Death, Tail Screw, Doom) we can't call it a blue mage").

I think that's an unfair comparison that involves putting a lot of words in mouths.

BLU's identity isn't tied to being "stupidly overpowered"; in fact, if anything most of its skills would be considered gimmicky in the hands of other jobs save for those Instant Death spells you mentioned. Two of its strongest attacks involve literally killing yourself.
BLU's identity is tied to utilizing enemy abilities as attacks -- a point which is what led the developers to introduce the Limited Job system in order to maintain that.

Likewise, Chemist's identity in every entry is tied to consumable items. If you removed that element, it wouldn't be related to the original job in gameplay at all, it would just be a generic healer with potions in its cast animations and particle effects.

Having played an unconventional healer before (Merc/Bodyguard Bounty Hunter in SWTOR), I have an appreciation for healers with gameplay that does not involve waving your hands to heal wounds. I'm sure there are others who wouldn't mind a healer that was away from what we've seen with WHM/SCH/AST.

And I concur, but again, the issue is that if all the devs have to go on is "throws potions", they could just as easily pull out Scholar and reskin its abilities to toss potions and change nothing else to satisfy that demand.

That's a call for the players to offer more of what they want to see, particularly to make something that truly is unique from other healers in terms of gameplay and party offerings.

That said, if you told me to make it work while keeping everything else as is, I'd bunch it with the ranged

Like I said.

Funnily enough, I just finished drafting a take on Chemist as a healer class right before I found this thread, and this Chemist doesn't even rely on the Mix mechanic.

I commend you on your originality then. Feel free to play the aforementioned drinking game whenever someone brings Mix up.

[Brightshadow]

I disagree not every job can be a DPS, and chemist is the second most recognized healer of the series.

Role Skills are not a issue peloton already has a different animation for each range DPS, there is no reason CHM couldn't have unique animations for their role Skills.

MP is a non issue since most jobs focus on their unique resources nowadays.

And healer gear for CHM is not an issue either, especially since RDM only uses caster gear but they are known in the series to use heavier gear.

Yes they attempted to make CHM 6 years ago and couldn't see it working, but that was 6 years ago. The game is a completely different game now.

[Shurrikhan]

Yes they attempted to make CHM 6 years ago and couldn't see it working, but that was 6 years ago. The game is a completely different game now.

True, it's now one that allows for even less originality in job design, especially for all but DPS.

[Archwizard]

I disagree not every job can be a DPS

I'm not saying "every job" can or should be -- obviously White Mages and Paladins have their specific roles.
The point I'm trying to make is that more thought needs to be put into such suggestions to justify their roles, beyond "it just is."

chemist is the second most recognized healer of the series.

If that were true, it would be in more than 2 numbered entries.
Yes, it's common to side-entries like Tactics, but that doesn't mean it will be equally adaptable in an MMO -- particularly because of that little "emphasis on consumables" thing.

Role Skills are not a issue peloton already has a different animation for each range DPS, there is no reason CHM couldn't have unique animations for their role Skills.

And healer gear for CHM is not an issue either, especially since RDM only uses caster gear but they are known in the series to use heavier gear.

Missing the forest for the trees here, mate. I'm not arguing against animations or particle effects. I'm arguing that that's all it would have to tie it to the fantasy of being "non-magical", especially if it would still use the same healing gear anyway.

Aesthetically non-magical, functionally magical anyway. So why not just introduce another magical healer, if it makes no difference?

MP is a non issue since most jobs focus on their unique resources nowadays.

I'm surprised you say that with a straight face, in spite of having capped every healer -- the one role where that's fundamentally untrue, to keep you from just spamming your strongest heal every time.

Yes they attempted to make CHM 6 years ago and couldn't see it working, but that was 6 years ago. The game is a completely different game now.

You're right! Now they're even more critical of what healers they introduce due to the disparities between the ones we already have.

[Vendalwind]

Heres a thought for unique chemist mechanic.

All heals are instant casts but are ALLLLLLL ground target aoes where you toss the potion. Everything is based on charges instead of mp except a very basic single target heal and single target attack. Except raise which has a long cast bar while mixing that swiftcast still applies too.

Lucid dream could get converted by a trait into scavenge and it would restock some cooldowns. Surecast would still function for arms length purpose. The gameplay style would be so much different from any other healer. Repose and esuna could easily be repurposed to have a pot aspect as well.

As for niche he could be primarily a mitigation healer. Not shields but mitigation through iron skin potions barkskin what have you. You cpuld even put some of his dps into a thornskin potion that would be applied onto a tank and operate as a small dot type attack against the enemy that has threat.

The playstyle would be unique.
The niche would not conflict with any healer but operate alongside scholar the worst.
And raise could still have limits imposed by having it reduce charges of other abilities on use.
If you worry its early burst would too strong you could easily make it so some charges didnt begin to accumulate stacks until in combat.

[Vendalwind]

Also the balance of the game right now needs more healers and more hybrid melees(should they follow my hopes and seperatr hybrids from standard melee over time like casters and ranged) than anything else. A dps chemist/apothecary wouldnt be melee and would thus further disbalance role distribution. My votes still for healer chemist and melee hybrid beastmaster for next release.

[DamianFatale]

I'm sorry, but chemist/alchemist is just too ingrained in Square Enix's history as a healer to be anything else. It's like taking black mage and suddenly saying it can heal effectively. I would honestly be salty about it if they did this to chemist. I know a lot of FFXIV players haven't played older Final Fantasy games, but there are certain roles that just need to be kept as they are known for. Respecting the history of the franchise is important for these fans.

I hope they find a way to add chemist as a healer and balance it. For the future of the series, and the current game, chemist needs a stronger place in the franchise as a healer once more.