How do we feel about tank damage right now?

[Kabooa]

Just write what you have to say. I'm guessing it has something to do with AST matching or even superseding tank dps by the end of the tier, with SCH not far behind. AST was OP and everyone knows it.

But that's not everything these logs show, which I'm sure you see. So let's hear it.

Alrighty.

Context

These are speed runs. In speedruns, we assume all single target buffs goes to where it gets the most gain instead of padding a particular class for the sake of shiney. The end goal is -the most total DPS possible- so if single target cards are handed out, you can be certain that they are -not- given to to lower PDPS jobs as well as not being given to multiple people unless they cannot afford to be held.

These speed runs are executed by the same team. Part of the roster changed. We can however assume that the veteran members held the same standard for the newcomers and we can expect comparable performance.

Speed runs are not the metric to use for balancing jobs.

Speed runs -are- very good at seeing what jobs are capable of in a given situation and timeframe.

Voidwalker is a near 100% uptime fight. Final Omega is a near 100% uptime fight. These fights are comparable across tiers for relative damage participation.

The baby easy stuff - Final Omega

No Samurai, no Ninja. The Warrior brings the slashing Debuff. The Paladin slashing tax therefore does not go outside the tank role and no adjustment is needed here, no splitting the slashing bonus or anything.

3% of Tank damage goes to the Dragoon. They brought the strength buff.

Most of the Paladin Requiscat lined up with Contagion's 10% magic vuln. It's not perfect. 3-4 Holy Spirits per Req window fell under it. This means approximately 1.3% of the paladin's damage goes to the summoner (Or for simplicity, to the "DPS")

Two of the chain strategems the warrior doesn't benefit from (Inner Release).

Basically every Battle Litany the warrior doesn't benefit from.

This Devotion is 2% variant.

Bards are basically "2.5% of the raid's damage is mine" (Crit song is 1%, battle voice and foe req during burst windows is the rest)

The not quite as easy stuff

Cards. Hooboy.

Fey Haste has varying increases based on Job. 50% uptime of a 3% haste. On the safe side, we'll leave this out of the final tally.

Tally as is

Voidwalker
RDPS: 17.6%
PDPS: 18.4%

Final Omega
PDPS: 20.5%

Application - FOmega

So straight up, 3% of tank damage is given to the Dragoon.

19.9%

The summoner doesn't really take anything worth mentioning.

19.8%

Litany and Chain Strategem affect the paladin most and a little bit of warrior. About 60% of its effect. On average, a critical strike at this tier was worth about 1.6x damage. Both have 15% critical rate at about 12% uptime. While most cooldowns tend to be used during burst windows that increase their effectiveness, we'll be lax and take the average instead. A 15% critical increase at 1.6x damage is about 9% more damage. With 12% uptime, this is about 1% more damage. Two instances of this is 2% more damage on average, at 60% efficiency since the warrior ignores almost all of it, that's about 1.2% less damage.

19.56%

Bards battlevoice follows the same rule as the crits in that Warrior doesn't get as much benefit from them during IR windows, and the IR windows happen during battlevoice.

15% DH is 3.75% more damage with an uptime of 11%. Cut it in half and it's fairly negligible. About .18% increased damage.
Bard songs are +2% crit and are up all the time. The warrior benefits on this from any damage outside IR, which is about 60% of its damage, which is about 80% efficiency for the tank total. .8%
Foe Requiem is 3% damage increase. 24% uptime. About .75%
A grand total of about 1.6% damage increase.

19.24%

Cards.
We can assume that an Astro isn't going to single card themselves, so every instance of an offensive card buff on the Astro is an AoE buff.
There are nothing but balances on the Astro, so there is 26% uptime on a 5% AoE damage buff. This averages out to 1.25%.

18.99. We'll call it 19% even.

Tanks RDPS for Final Omega was 19%. This final figure is based on taking the average bonuses of most raid buffs rather than the multiplicative final that comes from stacking everything together. It is A) Easier to calculate and B) More favorable to the tanks.

Application - Voidwalker

It's all laid out really, except now tanks claim part of the attribute bonus.

There's 1,033 damage on the table for them. This is theirs to claim as DPS and Healers already brought their own buffs, which were effectively 3% damage increases. (1% per dps role). There is 1% unaccounted for (The "bonus" for the fifth role), and wherever you put that is your own prerogative. For the sake of argument, we'll say it's "Not tanks".

What does 1033 DPS do to the tanks RDPS score? Taking out their share (18%) leaves about 830 DPS.

18.4%

How much do they need to even up with Final Omega's tally?

About 600ish, or 300 each.

That said, a 99th Paladin and Gunbreaker would bring about 200-250 more DPS each, so if we are to match "Tank percentiles" the actual gap required is closer to 50-100.

[Nedkel]

Humor me this last time.

https://www.fflogs.com/reports/x6ajk...pe=damage-done

https://www.fflogs.com/reports/LR7qM...pe=damage-done

Examine these two logs and tell me your conclusion. Once you do yours, I'll do mine.

Healers are doing same amount of damage as they used to, and it only proves that tanks got nerfed to the level below healers dps contribution, also proving our point saying that tanks got nerfed this expansion for no particular reason.
No need to thank me.

Alrighty.

snip

A lot of what you have just wrote down does not apply here because you are taking percentages that were calculated including all the buffs received in the current expansion raid.
The percentage on the FFlogs on the current patch raid logs that you see is a contribution to the total DPS number, not the rDPS...
The total contribution to the dps in newest content is lower, there percentages are being calculated the same way they used to be calcualted in 4.0+

Take the newest raid number, take the DPS of the PLD from the logs you have shown, divide it by total dps and what you have? 0.0917...
Now take PLD rDPS and divide it by total dps done and you will have 0.0881 that translates to the 8.81% of total contribution and same for GNB giving 17.6% of total dps contribution of both tanks in current raid, still lower than yours 19%, right?

[Kabooa]

A lot of what you have just wrote down does not apply here because you are taking percentages that were calculated including all the buffs received in the current expansion raid.
The percentage on the FFlogs on the current patch raid logs that you see is a contribution to the total DPS number, not the rDPS...
The total contribution to the dps in newest content is lower, there percentages are being calculated the same way they used to be calcualted in 4.0+

Take the newest raid number, take the DPS of the PLD from the logs you have shown, divide it by total dps and what you have? 0.0917...

Looking at 99th 5.1 voidwalker Astro, they have an average RDPS value of 9.6k

Slotting them into Voidwalker to replace either healer has a negligible difference, though given the group in question, it would be possible to end up higher.

If you mean everything, I also said this.

Edit: I'll make an amend that most of my posts in this thread were made prior to the 5.1 job adjustments. If in further job adjustments Summoner becomes a new baseline, then Tanks can stand to receive an increase alongside Healers.

This is referring directly to how Summoner's current state demands a response in regards to Ranged and Red Mage.

If that response is to buff them to an equitable level, as Summoner's current kit absolutely destroys any reasoning for Ranged to be below it, while not having Red Mage at least shoulder to shoulder, then it does warrant coming back to tanks (and healers) and adjusting them up.

[Reynhart]

Healers are doing same amount of damage as they used to, and it only proves that tanks got nerfed to the level below healers dps contribution, also proving our point saying that tanks got nerfed this expansion for no particular reason.

1) They didn't "get nerfed"
2) There is a reason for why they scale differently than before. They lost all the strategic use of stance dancing and having to pay attention to any enmity.

[Shurrikhan]

As far as it pertains to tanks, again I think it's important to gauge the contribution not just by GCD and ability complexity, but by the macro-level fight-centric stuff expected of a tank. I'm confident SE has more in store for us later on in the xpac, but I'm not against the idea of higher complexity in tank combos. Naturally I would want this to lead to higher reward (most probably damage, but it would be nice if some kind of mitigation and/or other utility factored in as well).

First, fair on all points. I want to touch further on just this last bit, though.

I guess the concern that follows is whether it's appropriate to balance a job around the greatest efforts required for a given competing function (healing, tanking, etc.) when the majority of content is so vastly different. Perhaps in time content will make something closer to TEA than nearly-zero-GCDs-of-healing the norm, but that's likely to take years and would, simply put, rely on divisive increases in difficulty to healer's more immediately impactful duty (keeping people alive).

I've been going through the thread Kabooa made, but I have nothing substantive to add as of yet. I'm a bit too focused in on the current state of the game, so all of my suggestions are - to use your words - adding another spinning plate to maintain.

Makes sense. I had intended to have my own ideas listed there some couple weeks ago, but sadly they ended up requiring a modicum of AI (beyond merely 'use unvaried rotation on lead enmity target until %HP or timing trigger') that just doesn't exist in this game at present, which will probably tack on yet a further week or two's delay. I do feel bad for having been so critical of yours but having nothing of my own up there yet, let alone that it will likely appear only a pipedream once listed.

[Rhais]

Just as there's nothing other than the subjective opinion that tanks aren't fine now.

See, that's the rub isn't it? It comes down to opinion, and as usual, masking it as something else entirely.

Absolutely, I don't think either position is more legitimate than the other, it really just comes down to personal preference in regard to how the dps percentage should be divided between the roles and how important that is to your enjoyment of the game. My issue is with people setting up their opinion as the only acceptable way to view the game, using faulty arguments to present their opinion as right and the opposing view as wrong.
The game functions adequately now, and I'm presuming that like me others that would have no problem with a damage increase are suggesting it under the premise that it would be done in such a way as to preserve job balance and balance between the roles. Given that, it would function just as well were said damage increase implemented. That being the case, as I said it really is just a matter of opinion on where each individual feels the dps percentage should be divided between the roles.

Regarding the rest of your post, the logs do seem to support your position of the dps output not experiencing nearly as significant a drop as portrayed and if so, I think you have a valid objection to that being used as reasoning for a dps increase. Using inaccurate information is never a good basis to support a argument.

Edit: It might be interesting to see how much of a shift occurred with the beginning of HW as the starting point.

I also think dps levels are just one component in the overall current lackluster tanking experience, but considering the direction the devs have consistently been taking the game in for at least the beginning of SB I have little to no expectation that some of the other areas will receive adjustment to a more compelling state.

[J-Reyno]

Alrighty.

Snip

I appreciate you going through the effort to math out an estimation for tank rDPS. It's good information to review.

So let's say we take your numbers at face value and attribute 18.4-18.5% of tank damage to raid dps for both tiers. Seeing as the issue I have with tank damage is one of relative damage between the roles, we might look at healer dps as well. The log shows Omega pDPS for healers as 15.8%. Voidwalker pDPS is 18.3%.

That's a significant jump. Healer rDPS for Voidwalker is obviously even higher at 18.7%, and we can very well assume that an AST would see that number even higher.

So do we think healers were bringing 18.7%+ rDPS in Stormblood? Up from 15.8% pDPS?

Genuine question, because maybe SCH and AST had their personal damage contribution buffed to make up for a loss in raid damage. Going by these logs alone SCH is seeing a 106% increase in personal damage, though SCH's stratagem was nerfed and AST's cards shuffled around.

You're right that healers have always had good damage, and I don't think two roles should ever have been as close in damage as they were and are. As far as I'm concerned it's absolutely wild that you can swap from healer to tank and barely do more damage, or deal even less damage with 5x as many damage skills. The relative damage between the two roles given the elements of their individual gameplay is an issue, in my opinion, and the tank role really needs improvement. But you've been here a while and I don't feel the need to go over that with you again since we ultimately disagree.

[Kabooa]

So do we think healers were bringing 18.7%+ rDPS in Stormblood? Up from 15.8% pDPS?.

Given that Astro is in that party comp?

1.25% raid damage average on a total of (minus healers) 45,000 is around is about 540 DPS.

A Scholar's chain strategem is mostly unchanged. At current levels, an optimized scholar gains about an extra 10% DPS, which equates to around an 8% gain (courtesy of the new RDPS trackers - but it is worth noting that Crit/DH RDPS values can be wonky). About another 340 to the healer total.

Then single cards. It looks like one single balance and one single spear was thrown out, to the Black Mage and the Bard specifically. There might have been two single balances on the Black Mage, with a single overwriting an AoE application at the very beginning, but that's speculation based on Royal Road.

1 minute of balance is hefty on a Black Mage, along with 30 seconds of Spear, which are effectively 60 seconds for dots with proper Iron Jaws refreshing. 10% crit on Bard is about 7-8% damage increase just do their crit scaling, though this is split between their DoTs which enable their rotation and the shots themselves. Bards already sat on an absurdly high rate due to Straight Shot, and a Spear at the right window would shove them to nearly 80% critical rate.

I hate cards.

Given how absurdly stacked that Black Mage is, the astro is getting around another 100-120 DPS Just from them and around another 70-80 from the Bard. We'll call it an even 200. So we reallocate based on that, where healers were

PDPS: 15.8% ( ~8990)
RDPS: 18.4% ( ~10,070)

RDPS2: 17.7%. This one includes the Limit Break, which I admittedly did forget to account for earlier. It alters things by a few scant %, but which are admittedly well within a margin for error established through the methodology used (Using "averages" instead of calculating burst windows, and excluding Fey Wind)

That said.

I'll repeat that based on the next set of job adjustments, Tank and healer adjustments may be required. We are, currently, not so far off the mark, but if they decide to throw Ranged and Red Mage at Summoner's level, that's overall concerning.

Oddly, I think if they did do that, "1000" is right on the money in that case. I'd only ask you don't leave the healers behind.

[Rhais]

And again, on page 10, responding specifically to you.

I read what you posted and responded when you originally posted it. It no more conclusively establishes your point now then it did back on page 10. As I said previously, no persuasive arguments have been made to back your position.

You have earlier in this thread propped up your opinion as the only right view with specious arguments founded in irrelevant topics, erroneous statements, and baseless assumptions. While doing that you have purposefully misconstrued what people with an opposing opinion have said in order to denigrate their position.

Now I will say that in the last few posts you seem to be a lot less abrasive and condescending toward opposing viewpoints, and say a few things that even if I don't outright agree are at least worth consideration. You should have taken that approach from the outset, it would have been far more conducive to discussing the merits or lack thereof of the various arguments here.
Ultimately however this isn't an argument to win, provided it doesn't upend balance between the roles, how big a percentage of party dps tanks should be given and how much importance that plays in someones enjoyment of the role is purely a subjective opinion with no right or wrong answer.

[Deceptus]

Healers are doing same amount of damage as they used to, and it only proves that tanks got nerfed to the level below healers dps contribution, also proving our point saying that tanks got nerfed this expansion for no particular reason.
No need to thank me.

In the first example, the tanks were probably out of defensive stance for 95% of that fight. At the time, Defensive stance dropped your dps by 20% IIRC. Shadowbringers basically applied the tank stance penalties to all tanks across the board for the perception of not losing dps by equipping tank stance.

So again, take the first example of tank dps (10%) and drop 20% off of that for a result of 8% dps contribution add in the extra high potency dps attacks both tanks and healers got in Shadowbringers and you'll see that tanks are in the exact same spot they should be relative to the healers.