How do we feel about tank damage right now?

[Nedkel]

Every single buff is a nerf somewhere.
It's just framed differently.
The great irony of tanks asking for "more damage contribution" and disguising it is as such is that it inherently takes it away from the other two roles.

Please stop strawmaning the entire thread with nosense posts, thank you.

[Shurrikhan]

Jesus... whoooosh you miss the bloody point right over your head.
The fact that another healer who also isn't likely doing 100% uptime is doing almost as much as another entire role that has 100% uptime doesn't show how laughably behind tanks are? We are using the darn healers as a stick to say "hey Tanks have falled too far behind the lowest DPS already because even healers are riding our butts on damage!"
What part of that arguement says "hey healers are doing too much???"

Except that's simply not the case? A Healer with about half the offensive uptime of a tank does about, shockingly, half the damage of a tank. AST is the only one who flexes significantly beyond percentage damage as percentage uptime.

A typical speedrun, the only case in which WHM or SCH outperform a tank, have zero GCDs spent on healing outside of deployed-reci-Adlo or lily skills (and then only to the last multiple of three necessary to feed Misery casts for their 900 potency of damage). That's some 97.87% of the Tanks' uptime. That brings the disparity within 3% despite the fact that tanks already provide greater free output (i.e. without uptime- or other opportunity costs) than do healers.

[Shurrikhan]

The more damage healers do, the more healing GCDs have too high of an opportunity cost to use, meaning that healers get more and more pigeonholed into the "111 with a single dot and off-gcd heals only" playstyle.

Healers having so much damage on their basic nukes makes it fundamentally impossible to make skills like Cure 2 actually worth using and is part if why the role is so homogenised right now: everybody spams 1 nuke and tries to mostly heal with off-gcds.

Dead tank = dead party = less dps. Optimal play will require healers to minimize healing, no matter how little reward comes of it. The only thing actually limiting how much healing healers are allowed to do is how little damage their team takes.

Ultimately, that results from fights just not doing much raw damage, but a large part is also owed to just how absurdly high tank passive mitigation is and how much healing it saves over time.

[J-Reyno]

No one is saying "Healers shouldn't do damage."

Quite a few are saying "Healers shouldn't do as much as tanks."

They shouldn't do as much damage, and as has already been mentioned this doesn't mean healers need to be nerfed. It can be addressed by bringing tanks up. This will be repeated again if necessary.

Going by my logic, if you wish to go through this entire thread, my conclusion was "Tanks do not need 1000 (11%) to be on par with where they were in Stormblood". The OP's statement was based on comparing graphs with two different measurements - The padded stacked logs of Stormblood to the "Damage Goes to Who Brings It" logs of Shadowbringers.

Imagine that - A comparative measurement wouldn't favor tanks, who are nearly as selfish as Black Mages when it comes to DPS buffs. Their "Damage contribution" is less, but not nearly as wide as being claimed here.

We're talking somewhere in the range of 150-200 DPS to each tank.

You can compare the personal dps logs of Stormblood to the dps logs of current Shadowbringers just fine. What's more, current logs do not ONLY show rDPS. We CAN see personal DPS as well, with the only thing removed being single target padding. And no matter which comparison you use, it's more than clear that the other roles received a larger increase in damage than tanks.

You shouldn't butcher the word conclusion when very little when into your thought process in the first place. You compare tanks to the selfishness of BLM and then ignore the massive increase in damage BLM received in Stormblood compared to tanks. Why? Are you saying that tanks were somehow MORE padded in Storbmlood than BLM? How did you determine this to be sound reasoning? Or is it simply that the comparison magically stops working when it would no longer favor your argument?

But it's fine. As ever, I'm here to help. We'll go by your supposed logic and say that BLM and tank are both selfish and should have received a similar increase in personal dps for ShB. BLM's personal DPS during 4.5 Alphascape landed at 8427, and for Eden's Gate we're looking at 15417.

This means that BLM damage increased by around 6990 dps. That is an 82% increase in damage output.

Now. PLD's personal DPS for 4.5 Alpha hits 5286. Current 5.1 PLD dps is 8923.

PLD's damage increased by around 3637 dps. That is a 68% increase in damage.

Let's go ahead and chuck WHM in there, too. WHM's 4.5 Alphascape damage hit 3968. 5.1 patch WHM is sitting pretty at 8722.

WHM's damage increased by 4754 dps. This is a whopping 119% increase in damage.

Please be aware that while Shadowbringers aDPS does remove single-target padding, tanks were not the benefit of mass padding on average in Stormblood. It's something that happens for select parses and is why the numbers selected do not represent MAX stats, but the average scores at higher levels of play.

So no, tanks are certainly not sitting a meager 150-200 dps behind their relative contribution in Stormblood. In fact, if we give PLD the same damage increase as BLM of 82%, they would reach 9620 dps, which would be an increase of 697 dps from current numbers.

But let's do one better and put PLD at the midpoint between BLM and WHM damage increases. That would be about a 100% increase in DPS then, yeah? Which would place PLD at 10572 dps.

So somewhere within that variance (82-100%) we'd see an increase from of 700 dps up to a full 1.5k dps. Yet here they are mingling with the healers. Tanks were shafted this xpac for no discernible reason, and it shows.

Oh, and just because I'm in the mood for it, allow me to inform you that the variance between rDPS and pDPS for tanks vs dps is not as large as you seem to think it is. 5.1 PLD sits at 8567 rDPS compared to 8923 pDPS. 5.1 BLM shuffles from 15003 rDPS to 15417 pDPS. This is a difference of 356 and 414 dps, respectively. So what we're not going to do is pretend that tanks on average receive more benefit from "tHe PaDdInG" than DPS jobs.

What your argument here boils down to is that tanks were the most padded of all the jobs in Stormblood such as to significantly skew the numbers compared to healers and dps. Which is a joke, and not a good one.

[Reynhart]

I'd prefer everyone have some responsibility in enmity management.

If that's the case, I think it should either be :

• Too weak for tanks to completely neglect managing their enmity (Pretty much the same impact that Second Wind has on keeping DPS alive)
• Tied with a cost so that you wouldn't want to use it on CD. A thing like a Subtle Blow that greatly reduce the enmity you generate for a few seconds but reduce your DPS.

Personally, I'd also rather mitigation play a large part in the alternative to pure damage, rather than merely enmity.

If that's the case, it should still have a DPS cost. Either by having a damage penalty, or by having GCD mitigation skill. The choice should still be "how much GCD I can spend on not doing as much damage as possible" ? With best tanks finding the minimum amount of them. And of course, tuning the game so that, unless greatly overgearing, that minimal amount would still be a significant number. About 1/4th or 1/3rd of your GCD, which, in my opinion, should also be what healers have to spend on healing if damage recevied was tuned correctly.

As for the comparison of healer and tank maximal damage, I'd prefer both be nearer to that of DPS

I don't think it should. You should never be able to replace an average DPS with a good tank and achieve better DPS.

WHM's damage increased by 4754 dps. This is a whopping 119% increase in damage.

Can we see how their GCD healing compared from before ?

I don't really know how accurate they are, but I found these two videos from 4.0. It seem to me that healers always parsed very close to tanks on dummies, because they literally had 0 healing to do. What created the gap during actual content was the amount of GCD they couldn't spend dealing damage., which seems to be pretty much non-existant now, at least for top parses. (Also keep in mind that in the tank video, we see a WAR with Slashing debuff and Deliverance, two things that were removed in ShB, explaining how their damage scales differently)

[Quor]

snip

You nakedly and obviously just want more damage for tanks because you don't think tanks have enough damage. I, and others, have explained time and again the multiple flaws with not only this "argument" but also the inherent problems this would cause in the macrocosm of the games' systems.

In terms of job balance, what happened on a third party dps logging site prior to 5.0 does not matter. I won't go over the problem with the comparative metrics again either, as it's already been explained many times. Tank damage is fine. First world clear TEA had tanks comfortably above healers in combined damage. The vast majority of savage clears have tanks comfortably above healers. Balance should not ever be judged based upon the extreme top (or bottom) percentiles. Using a <1% sample size and then applying it to the entire population is the height of statistical and scientific malfeasance. Just stop.

[Rhais]

You nakedly and obviously just want more damage for tanks because you don't think tanks have enough damage. I, and others, have explained time and again the multiple flaws with not only this "argument" but also the inherent problems this would cause in the macrocosm of the games' systems.

You haven't explained anything, you have filled this thread with a bunch of long winded vacuous posts devoid of any sort of solid reasoning for why tanks shouldn't see a damage increase. You and others have failed to put forth any sort of credible argument for why a damage increase would be negative. There is nothing there except your own, and others subjective opinion that tanks are fine now.

[Kabooa]

What your argument here boils down to is that tanks were the most padded of all the jobs in Stormblood such as to significantly skew the numbers compared to healers and dps. Which is a joke, and not a good one.

Mind providing the parameters you're using for these comparisons? 4.5 is pretty broad, and Paladin's capability was -way higher- than you're listing it.

You haven't explained anything, you have filled this thread with a bunch of long winded vacuous posts devoid of any sort of solid reasoning for why tanks shouldn't see a damage increase. You and others have failed to put forth any sort of credible argument for why a damage increase would be negative. There is nothing there except your own, and others subjective opinion that tanks are fine now.

Just as there's nothing other than the subjective opinion that tanks aren't fine now.

See, that's the rub isn't it? It comes down to opinion, and as usual, masking it as something else entirely.

"Damage Contribution", the idea that tanks aren't providing the damage they were before to the raid. It's a valid concern.

But from the angle of "Damage Contribution", tanks have dropped around 10% at a glance (From 20 to 18%). However, using high speedkills for that comparison is in highly optimized groups, where the healers are blasting out damage that surely skews that. For example: Any speed clear of Voidwalker.

But "Damage Contribution", as has been touted, is misleading. Tank's "Damage contribution" itself hasn't changed to the degree it's been claimed - Because Tanks now contribute differently to the party bonus. Straight up 1% added to the party, where as before they only added Vitality. So realistically they dropped from 20% to 19%.

The removal of Slashing was mostly a neutral change - Raising paladins and Dark Knights to around the warrior's level in the subsequent retuning, but even then, the slashing bonus wouldn't go to Warrior in any group with Ninja or Samurai - Because in all relevant cases, the DPS with Slashing paired with the Paladin/Dark Knight where it mattered, so the gain went to them. Basically the Warrior is no higher on 'damage contribution' than it is listed at, but Paladin and Dark Knight often plummet.

The presence of strong party buffs also largely skews the idea of damage contribution when it comes to using DPS graphs. A Full Time astro buddy in Stormblood can make anyone look good.

We also want to use 100% uptime (or as close to it as we can get) fights when making comparisons, as no job is favored due to timing windows, like Warriors on Ravana during Heavensward. With that in mind.

https://www.fflogs.com/reports/x6ajk...pe=damage-done

https://www.fflogs.com/reports/LR7qM...pe=damage-done

Take a bit to examine this. I'd like to hear your thoughts.

[SleepyNeko]

How did this thread get so long and why are people now comparing individual classes?

I thought this was all about how the OP thinks Tanks should contribute to a higher % of damage done to the boss by the end of the fight.

Just randomly pulling a top 10 fight on e3s here are the numbers:
DPS: 63%
Healer: 19%
Tank: 18%

So basically OP wants the gap between DPS (63%) and Tank(18%) to be reduced. By increasing the DPS on tanks it'll reduce the % for both DPS and Healer (but it'll take a bigger % from DPS) and reduce the reliance on competent DPS to make DPS checks. I'm not really too worried about Healer doing too much dps myself, however, in the above example it would be more beneficial to bring 3 healers and 1 tank if the fight mechanics allowed for it to be single tanked.

I personally would want higher dps on Tanks so that when I have to Tank I don't need to rely too much on the quality of the Pug DPS.

[MerlinCross]

How did this thread get so long and why are people now comparing individual classes?

I thought this was all about how the OP thinks Tanks should contribute to a higher % of damage done to the boss by the end of the fight.

Just randomly pulling a top 10 fight on e3s here are the numbers:
DPS: 63%
Healer: 19%
Tank: 18%

So basically OP wants the gap between DPS (63%) and Tank(18%) to be reduced. By increasing the DPS on tanks it'll reduce the % for both DPS and Healer (but it'll take a bigger % from DPS) and reduce the reliance on competent DPS to make DPS checks. I'm not really too worried about Healer doing too much dps myself, however, in the above example it would be more beneficial to bring 3 healers and 1 tank if the fight mechanics allowed for it to be single tanked.

I personally would want higher dps on Tanks so that when I have to Tank I don't need to rely too much on the quality of the Pug DPS.

But, why though?

All I keep seeing is just "We want to take a 5th DPS in" when the answer should actually be "Give Tanks more stuff to do" but there's no amount of "Stuff to do" that's going to please you people. You're going to memorize where to stand, when to move, and the rotation of CDs to use and after that it's just practice and keeping your cool. Then logging in to complain you deal too little damage and put too much stress on the DPS for doing what is supposed to be their own JOB. DAMAGE.

F it. Buff Tank damage. Do it. Get that damage buff stupid high. I want to see a 6 man WAR/DRK team that doesn't need DPS roles. Maybe then we won't have people complaining about DPS.

Can't complain about DPS being relied on if there's no DPS(Taps temple). Why yes I know this is hyperbole/over the top, but I would LOVE to see the community's reaction if Tanks got within the ball park of DPS damage. Maybe as an April Fools prank or something, I would love to see the discussion that would happen. I mean heck I know it's side content that doesn't matter but Rathalos EX is completed the easiest with 3 Tanks and a Healer. Let's get that as the norm for a week and see what people think.

Personally I just say ax the OT so you people can take the 5th DPS you actually want. Actual question for you top tier raiders; how often do you just wipe it if your MT dies? Like how often is is that you try to recover with the OT? Honest question but if it's not very often and the general response is to fling your bodies off the stage to wipe; what are you actually losing if OT position was dropped?