Emet-Selch Is Not That Tragic

[Teraluna]

Do not forget that Zodiark tempered Emet. Consequently everything he did was driven at the core by Zodiark's will.

[Anselmet]

To us Emet Selch is evil, but from his pov we are evil. Hell, if more of his people were around they would most likely feel the same about the WoL. We are more or less the giant barrier stopping his people from returning and living once more. On the flip side, we are interrupting his efforts because we don't want to be a sacrifice for a race that is mostly extinct. There is no winning here because Emet Selch and the other Ascians will always feel the need to restore what they lost due to Zodiarc's tempering. I think that is why I sympathize with Emet Selch. It's because if I were in his shoes and I lost everything I held dear I would do anything to get them back. But unlike Emet Selch I would move on and realize that I should instead help the races that replaced my people and let the past go. Emet Selch cannot do that due to his tempering and that is where my sympathies lie.

[Annihilism]

Why Would You Say Something So Controversial Yet So Brave?

[Reynhart]

His motives may have been “noble”, but that’s strictly from his point of view.

Most of motives are based on a point of view. I'm not really sure killing beastmen so that they won't summon their primal again is not really noble from their point of view, especially since they summon it by fear of being killed.

Is that noble to use a bug bomb if your house is crawling with insects ? From his point of view, that's what humans are and did since they only have a fragment of a soul compared to him yet have taken the whole world. After all, those insects only look for a place to live.

[MuseTraveller]

Do not forget that Zodiark tempered Emet. Consequently everything he did was driven at the core by Zodiark's will.

I feel like people are forgetting this part way too often.
Even if he wanted to embrace different route, even though he did try, he did eventually feel the disappoitnment and the desperate need to restore his people which was likely due to being tempered by Zodiark.
He even noted that - he and those who summoned Zodiark got tempered and everything and all they do and will do will be to restore Zodiark. So it's not farfetched to imagine every time he would sway from the goal, Zodiark would influence his will to get him back in line.
That part I do find quite tragic about him.

[Lersayil]

I feel like people are forgetting this part way too often.
Even if he wanted to embrace different route, even though he did try, he did eventually feel the disappoitnment and the desperate need to restore his people which was likely due to being tempered by Zodiark.
He even noted that - he and those who summoned Zodiark got tempered and everything and all they do and will do will be to restore Zodiark. So it's not farfetched to imagine every time he would sway from the goal, Zodiark would influence his will to get him back in line.
That part I do find quite tragic about him.

To be fair, our idea of what tempering is still very vague. We also have very little idea of what Zodiarks and Hydaelyns motivations are, if there are any. It's possible they are just mindless automatons that are doing their job based on pre-programmed tenets.

[Alleo]

Thats one way of interpreting it, and possibly the case, but we don't really know for sure. To be honest the Amaurotians seemed just bonkers enough to argue that no type of sacrifice is worth messing with the dead. Or maybe thinking as you do and assuming the cataclysm was their fault? All speculation at this point.

Of course its pure speculation right now but seeing how Emet does not like us as the new stewards and Hythlo hinting that other Ancients wanted to give the planet in the hands of the new life, really makes its quite hard to believe that we are talking about plants here. And seeing how only Ancient ones existed and the new races had to come from somehwere (since they must have existed before the sundering to be on these shards) then there is imo a high chance that the new life that was created after the calamity were the new races thus sapient beings.

And I also never said that them bringing their own doom was a fact so of course its still speculation. But at least with all the information we have right now its a good possibilty just like its a good possibility that there was an outside force. (But still kinda telling how helpless they were in the face of danger and how easily their magic could go out of control) I am not even blaming them for that. Things like that can happen all the time to all civilisations and did happen in our history too. I am a bit doubtful if the Zodiark plan was the best plan at hand and if they might have been too blind to see some other reasons (or maybe took too long to get one). But even that would still have been fine (minus the tempering part) but anything after that? That was their full own doing.

Its also not about creation magic being bad, its about using it too much without giving back. And they are not perfect beings. They have the same emotions as we do, they seemingly had enough problems in the world to create souls that wont pass on because of their immense anger and when doom was upon them they talked about it but seemingly did not do much. So it could simply be the case that they either did not notice is because it was happening at a very slow pace of a long amount of time or they were just blind to it. Even in our world most of us do know that certain problems will happen if we dont change our way of living. Does not stop us from still doing them.

About time traveling: Seeing how the exarch believed that he would fade away after the change was done and was suprised that it did not happen (which still could mean that the bad one was ereased but he remains there because of being a paradox and bound to the tower), I would take a guess and say that most of those working with that knew that there was a high risk of being ereased from existance. Heck even Emet himself talks about time travel like that because he wanted to have a world with no need of heroes and that we would be gone from that. So he too believed that the old time line will be overwritten. And so for me it makes sense that these people knew at least the huge amount of riks of doing that and still did it. I mean would it change the sacrifice of the ancient ones to summon and keep Zodiark fueled if later down the line they would have been brought back? No imo it would not. And thus I still see this as an example for a big sacrifice in the name of creating a better future for others.

(Also if you say that you dont count the bad time line because they were still doomed: Then why are we counting the ancient ones? They were only doing that sacrifice too when their world was doomed and they would have truly died anyway. So doesnt that mean that this race also has not done anything to show that they are better if we look at it like that? Heck when the bad events happened all over their world and other cities got destroyed they stood there and only discussed about helping them or not x))

To us Emet Selch is evil, but from his pov we are evil. Hell, if more of his people were around they would most likely feel the same about the WoL. We are more or less the giant barrier stopping his people from returning and living once more.

Would they? Hytho pointed out that it was the convocation (thus those tempered by Zodiark) that gave the idea of bringing back their lost ones after all was done by using the new life and this create such a big divide between their races for the first time ever. That does not sound like evey ancient one would have been for that. And what about those that sacrificed themselves? Would they be happy in being back (if they even can be back) while knowing that billions of life was destroyed for it? Including the split souls of their own people?

[Lersayil]

Fair points in there, only addressing the ones I disagree with on some level.

Its also not about creation magic being bad, its about using it too much without giving back. And they are not perfect beings.

Nothing we know currently about creation magic implies that it had a price other than aether and a proper idea, blueprint or image for the thing you want to do (cant recall the specific word they used). It was stated that the Amaurotians supplied that aether in full from their own reserves.

(Also if you say that you dont count the bad time line because they were still doomed: Then why are we counting the ancient ones? They were only doing that sacrifice too when their world was doomed and they would have truly died anyway.

There is a bit of difference between the two. The future Source was effed. No matter what they did they had no way out, no way to save themselves. The Amaurotians did. They died so the rest of THEIR society would live on. The Exarch and company just tried to make something good from their already certain doom. Its to be applauded, but its an easier decision to make, than sacrificing 75% of your people willingly to buy the rest a future. Just imagine the uproar, arguments and public disrest if we as a race would have to result this. I imagine many volunteering for their loved ones, but 75% is a heavy number.

Would they? Hytho pointed out that it was the convocation (thus those tempered by Zodiark) that gave the idea of bringing back their lost ones after all was done by using the new life and this create such a big divide between their races for the first time ever. That does not sound like evey ancient one would have been for that. And what about those that sacrificed themselves? Would they be happy in being back (if they even can be back) while knowing that billions of life was destroyed for it? Including the split souls of their own people?

If true I agree with you. I would also think that they made the story a lot more boring with it.

For now we can only speculate, since we didn't get many specifics about that post-Zodiark pre-Hydaelyn period. If Zodiark turns out to be a bad guy that brainwashed the Amaurotians, or the post-Zodiark Amaurotians just turn out to be selfish bastards, it would majorly undermine the sympathy they we're trying to build towards them sofar.

[Shori]

^-^ I liked Emet as did most. His motive was innocent even if his actions evil. He didnt consider the life on the shards as real life forms and was trying to piece everything back together to get what he considered to be real life. Some of the things that were said by him and by the shade who recognised our soul point to the fact there is far more than what we already know and that we are being prepared to mourn.

[Lauront]

I found his story tragic, but not sympathetic, considering that the Ascians' downfall came from their own reckless abuse of creation magic.

That's just head canon. Nothing has been confirmed to that effect. The way the entire phenomenon arose caught them completely off guard. If anything, Amaurot indicates they were very cautious in how they used creation magic. So where are you getting this from?

The short story with Hades implies something had gone awry with the Lifestream - we can but speculate whether this is linked to Amaurot's predicament and whether Creation magics were at fault in any sense.

If true I agree with you. I would also think that they made the story a lot more boring with it.

For now we can only speculate, since we didn't get many specifics about that post-Zodiark pre-Hydaelyn period. If Zodiark turns out to be a bad guy that brainwashed the Amaurotians, or the post-Zodiark Amaurotians just turn out to be selfish bastards, it would majorly undermine the sympathy they we're trying to build towards them sofar.

It's speculation on her part, as is throwing in the figure "billions". It's not known when the plan was formulated to add in a third stage which would restore their fallen - but the desire is nonetheless understandable, as they are the only reason the world still existed afterwards. If the departure from the Convocation as a result of this came before the summoning of Zodiark, tempering as an excuse makes no sense. If it was after, it might, but like you say, it significantly erodes the value of the story and just makes it "big bad god made me do it". It also does not jive with what we now know of darkness as a form of energy - it is not born out of negative or evil emotions, nor does it even stem from selfishness, but various elements in an energetic state. Thus, there isn't even really a reason Zodiark would need to be evil, simply as a result of being darkness aligned. There's always the possibility the beings in the world he was helping rescue somehow corrupted his nature but I doubt it. So it'd just reduce to tempering, "just because".

As matters stand, we don't really know how tempering affects the ancients, given their huge aetheric reserves, nor do we know how it'd affect someone with the Echo - or whether it somehow ties into it. Some people want this to be an awfully convenient story that resolves to Zodiark tempering the Ascians and somehow, Hydaelyn not tempering her summoners and her summoning having caused no resulting issues. Maybe it will be but like you, I'd find that boring.

I still wonder if there is something to Lahabrea's comments about how aetheric and physical laws will continue to be warped whilst Hydaelyn is there.