Emet-Selch Is Not That Tragic

[Enla]

Rolling into the party mega late here but... when does the story ever paint him as a hero?

One of the only times I remember it happening, and please I welcome corrections because it's been four months, was in relation to his fellow ancients. "The victor shall write the tale and the vanquished shall become it's villain," is a line he uses right before the final battle and I think it provides all the context one needs in these regards. To the ancients who willfully agreed to sacrifice themselves and to those who believed that the star should be nurtured for another culling to bring the sacrificed back, his actions would be seen as heroic. Especially considering how self-centered that race was presented to be. Not only because he would be reviving his people but because even if he revived those who disagreed, he and his fellows could present /any story/ they chose to them and be the heroes of this particular tale. A bit of 'history is written by the victors' in that regard.

Not that it'd really matter either because we already know the ancients were pretty self centered to begin with in a sort of 'bless your heart' sort of way. They didn't want to help the other cities when they were facing their own calamities, and those that spoke out in favor of aid did so under selfish pretenses. While a portion did eventually lead to the creation of Hydaelyn to end the potential culling of non-ancient life for Zodiark's purposes they, again, could be fed any tale the Ascians wanted at the end of the day and what would it matter? The sacrifices were already made and the Scions and their ilk trussed up as villains in legend, trying to prevent the undoing of what the ultimate villain Hydaelyn had done to their world.

About the only place the game uses the word hero for him is in regards to his Extreme but that's being presented via the eyes of an NPC who by their own admission doesn't understand what happened and who will simply try to give the tale it's own spin. Yes the NPC is a stand in for Yoshi-P but when the rest of the narrative is practically beating you to death with how Emet is the living embodiment of 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions' I can't really go as far as that meaning the story itself is giving that same endorsement.

[Puksi]

@Avidria - The Minstreling Wanderer and the description for Hades EX both call him a "hero" several times. And while I absolutely agree on the fate of his people being tragic, and I am all for remembering them, for Square to describe his deeds as heroism was jarring.

In some places in the story it felt to me like the writers were pushing sympathy for him a bit too much, and the "hero" talk when the EX was released only added to that feeling. He certainly could have been trying to delude himself--his backhanded way of speaking to us never made me feel like he was conflicted or trustworthy, though, and his actions definitely didn't give me any impression of hesitation. I do agree there was no debate among the characters that his methods were monstrous, and his atrocities were atrocities--unlike in this thread, lmao.

The problem I have with the aftermath of Vauthry's arc is that the writers never permit us to reveal the truth we saw with the Echo. Like last patch, the old mayor's adviser spoke of how Vauthry's father was essentially the "good old days" of Eulmore. It was a perfect time to tell the truth! But we just smiled and nodded. It doesn't feel heroic. We set the record straight for the Warriors Of Darkness, but we leave Vauthry to be reviled for a fate he didn't choose and couldn't fight, and we leave his mother to just be silently forgotten, as she was when Emet-Selch and her husband discussed using her body and her infant as incubators for a Lightwarden while she looked on in fear.

[Avidria]

@Avidria - The Minstreling Wanderer and the description for Hades EX both call him a "hero" several times. And while I absolutely agree on the fate of his people being tragic, and I am all for remembering them, but for Square to describe his deeds as heroism was jarring.

Huh... didn't even realize that til just now. Seems very odd actually, considering the tone of the rest of the story. The minstrel is wont to... embellish... but yeah. Definitely didn't get that impression anywhere else.

But yeah no he definitely never came off as trustworthy to me - even if he was telling full truth the whole time, it was still truth from his perspective based on what he knows and feels, and still warped by thousands of years of bitterness, grief, death, and failure. What made me kinda side eye him and wonder if he really believed what he said about our lives' value was the casual offhanded way he said it to make a point - it came off as deliberate antagonism more than anything - and then the way he reacted to us in the lead-up to the final fight. He came off to me as someone who'd maybe wanted to be wrong, and was disappointed we didn't meet his wild criteria to prove him wrong and prove we aren't worthless. ...I'm very tired so may not have worded this quite how I wanted to but that's the gist of that thought process.

Looking back I do wish we had more closure on things like what happened to Vauthry - though there are actually a lot of things from ARR to now that I really wish our character had reacted or acted differently in response to. There's a lot there that should be said or done that isn't, and the other way around, and yeah... I'm kinda hoping the Vauthry thing does come up again at some point. 'Cause that was messed up for sure.

One of the only times I remember it happening, and please I welcome corrections because it's been four months, was in relation to his fellow ancients. "The victor shall write the tale and the vanquished shall become it's villain," is a line he uses right before the final battle and I think it provides all the context one needs in these regards.

Hmm yeah that's a fair point too. I guess that sorta does go back to his moral relativism comment - whoever wins gets to decide who was right, and what story gets told. He probably would be seen as a hero by the ones who were already planning to sacrifice all this life to bring their people back to begin with - he'd have basically done what they were going to do anyway, just... more violently. Even among the Ancients, though, not everybody felt that way - that's how we got Hydaelyn in the first place. But they're dead and he isn't, so he's taken it upon himself to decide who's right and whose lives are most important.

He's a bit of a hypocrite, really.

[Bright-Flower]

Intent and execution also don't always line up.

SE probably intended for the first two Zenos fights for example to feel intimidating and hopeless but they only felt tedious to me and failed to impact any sense of dread. Authorial intent only gets you so far because the impression one tries to give doesn't always work out.

[Gemina]

Intent and execution also don't always line up.

SE probably intended for the first two Zenos fights for example to feel intimidating and hopeless but they only felt tedious to me and failed to impact any sense of dread. Authorial intent only gets you so far because the impression one tries to give doesn't always work out.

The sense of dread is felt by your supporting cast, who are in total disbelief that even you stood no chance against the crown prince. When you're character who has been so heavily relied on and used as a weapon to take down the biggest threats up to this point fails to deliver, that hopelessness transfers over to everyone in the Reach. The next course of action didn't even involve Zenos at all. They were just like, "Let's go where he isn't."

I am not quite sure what people were expecting out of Zenos. But it feels like the disappointment is very similar to that expressed from his father, in which case for all intents and purposes, he is doing what he's supposed to be doing. Zenos has been established as a threat to anyone who gets in the way of his objective, so he is a wildcard as we clearly see at the conclusion of 5.0. He's one dimensional for sure, but so is Jaws and Jason Voorhees. While I wouldn't put them in the category of greatest villains either, what is common with them is when they're around, they are seriously giving everyone in their vicinity a really bad day.

Maybe I'm just a sucker for narcs, but he's pizza to me. Of course he's not on the same level or near it with someone like Emet, but he still keeps me entertained. The only time I found him boring was when he, himself was bored out of his mind.

[Teraluna]

The sense of dread is felt by your supporting cast, who are in total disbelief that even you stood no chance against the crown prince. When you're character who has been so heavily relied on and used as a weapon to take down the biggest threats up to this point fails to deliver, that hopelessness transfers over to everyone in the Reach. The next course of action didn't even involve Zenos at all. They were just like, "Let's go where he isn't."

I am not quite sure what people were expecting out of Zenos. But it feels like the disappointment is very similar to that expressed from his father, in which case for all intents and purposes, he is doing what he's supposed to be doing. Zenos has been established as a threat to anyone who gets in the way of his objective, so he is a wildcard as we clearly see at the conclusion of 5.0. He's one dimensional for sure, but so is Jaws and Jason Voorhees. While I wouldn't put them in the category of greatest villains either, what is common with them is when they're around, they are seriously giving everyone in their vicinity a really bad day.

Maybe I'm just a sucker for narcs, but he's pizza to me. Of course he's not on the same level or near it with someone like Emet, but he still keeps me entertained. The only time I found him boring was when he, himself was bored out of his mind.

Taking the Jaws example.
Sure Jaws was good in a one dimensional aspect, but this type of villain tires out pretty quickly after the first event. Jaws 2/Jaws 3 etc were all 'been here done this' low interest experiences. This mirrors the Zenos story arc to date.
We beat Zenos......Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water - 'oh look there's another Zenos' ....and so on.
This is the issue with one dimensional villains - repeatability. Yet that is precisely what is being handed to us with this character.

[Lauront]

It was always clear they had motives - they were just opaque. However, from their perspective they did not want to see their world and all the souls in it enervated (also why they don't see any lifeforms resulting from this as equivalent to what once was), and probably see Hydaelyn as parasitic on aether intended for Zodiark and restoring their fallen, so I can understand why they are willing to take the drastic actions they engage in. Whatever led to the disagreement that culminated in Hydaelyn's summoning, the fragmented world that came after is something they wish to reverse. Granted the writers could just insert tempering as the cause behind it all, as poor a decision as I'd consider that to be, but for now it's up in the air.

I think it is simply disingenuous to pretend that Zenos is in a similar spot to them, when his goal is literally to amuse himself and there is currently precious little to suggest his backstory will mirror Yotsuyu's. The purpose he appears to be serving is little more than having the hubris to allow the authors a way to bring Zodiark into the story through means besides Elidibus.

[Puksi]

Granted the writers could just insert tempering as the cause behind it all, as poor a decision as I'd consider that to be, but for now it's up in the air.

He is an unreliable narrator at best, but Emet-Selch's dialogue implied they knew they would become thralls of Zodiark to some degree, didn't it? In either case, they certainly still had free will when they chose to become so. He's no Zenos, his base motivation was sympathetic, but his subsequent actions are objectively monstrous.

Square should've revisited General Leo for inspiration if they wanted to do a tragic adversary that would let them toss the word "hero" around.

[Lauront]

He is an unreliable narrator at best, but Emet-Selch's dialogue implied they knew they would become thralls of Zodiark to some degree, didn't it? In either case, they certainly still had free will when they chose to become so. He's no Zenos, his base motivation was sympathetic, but his subsequent actions are objectively monstrous.

Square should've revisited General Leo for inspiration if they wanted to do a tragic adversary that would let them toss the word "hero" around.

For the time being we're stuck with "unreliable narrators". As I said, we don't even know how tempering functions on higher beings. I don't think they necessarily did know of it - their experience was in summoning Primals that consumed the entire life force of an ancient, but which nonetheless would pale in comparison to the power of either Zodiark or Hydaelyn. Emet put it as "naturally" but that is with the benefit of hindsight. So far, all we have is player head canon that they brought their fate onto themselves... on the basis of nothing but speculation... and that tempering functions in the same way as it does on mortals... which we don't really know, either. All we really do know is that they saw it necessary to summon a gigantic Primal to spare their world after something emerged which knew how to hijack their creation powers to spawn monstrosities (and a short story suggesting the Lifestream had begun to behave in odd ways, for reasons that are entirely unclear.)

Absent any major revelations to come about their motives, I'm fine with viewing him as both heroic and tragic - and their rationale for not viewing lives following the Sundering as equivalent to theirs makes sense, whether those on the other side of the coin accept it or not. They're not obliged to, but it does render it a contest of wills rather than some done to death Manichean good/evil struggle. If they do reduce it to nothing but tempering, I'd find it pretty cheap, but whatevs. I'd rather they found a way to keep Zodiark around, even if his faithful end up extinct.

[IttyBitty]

I have no idea why anybody is trying to spin Emet as any kind of a hero. He's tragic, sure. But tragedy and sympathy does not a hero make. He's stuck trying to bring back a world that is long gone in the hope it'll bring back what he remembers. Doing so requires genocide. There is nothing heroic about that no matter how you spin it.

But I guess Foxy Grandpa can do no wrong because him sassy and make a joke and doesn't afraid of anything. Gotta stan the genocidal geriatric! Don't get me wrong, he's a good character! Very well written. Possibly the best part of Shadowbringers. If the circumstances were different, a character like him could have been a good addition to the regular cast! But the chips didn't fall that way. His motivations are repugnant, no matter how "noble" they may seem on the surface. He's not, in any way, a good character.

Zenos is just a terrible, boring character all around. He was by far the least compelling part of Stormblood, and remains as such because his motivation as presented is so hopelessly shallow that even a puddle looks like the Mariana Trench by comparison.