Emet-Selch Is Not That Tragic

[Lersayil]

Hythlodaeus says that the Ascians wanted to use the new life to get their old ones back while others said that it was enough and that the new life should be the stewards of the planet and that their time is over. For me at least that does not sound like something you would say about a plant or animal. (I also would doubt that the ancients ones would be truly against them planting some trees somewhere and chopping them down later) Especially when Emet later states that he cant just see us as being the stewards of this planet because of our behaviour.

Thats one way of interpreting it, and possibly the case, but we don't really know for sure. To be honest the Amaurotians seemed just bonkers enough to argue that no type of sacrifice is worth messing with the dead. Or maybe thinking as you do and assuming the cataclysm was their fault? All speculation at this point.

The funny thing is that our people did that already. The people from the bad future knew that there was a high chance that their timeline would cease to exist if they change the past, yet they still did this in the hopes of a better future. And unlike the ancients which could have been remembered through their surviving people, the bad future ones wont even have that. Also a couple of people have shown in the story to be quite ready to throw away their lifes for the safety of others and I am honestly not sure why they decided to let Alphinaud be quiet there.

Time travel is a different can of worms depending how you look at it. They theorized that their timeline wouldn't change with the past, so they could be just creating a new timeline without changing their own. And even if they were wrong, and the timeline shifted, we don't quite know how they viewed the decision. It could've been a noble sacrifice unanimously decided by the masses, or just looking at the current timeline as worthless and throwing it away at a chance for anything better. Or for the uneducated, not familiar with time travel, they could've just thought of it as changing their own lives with a magical fingersnap for the better.

As for the smaller sacrifices, I'm not trying to belittle them, but systematic and voluntary sacrifice of your civilization is really on quite a different scale. I think I agree with the twins on this one. The Source (or humans generally) could or would not make this decision (and I don't count the timetravel because their world was already doomed anyways, and they weren't sacrificing a part of them. They we're throwing away the whole timeline).

I thinkt they also mentioned how the planet was dieing. So either it was just an unfortunate situation where the planets life was simply over, or there was something from the outside that infected it. Of course there could also be the chance that the planet died because they used too much creation magic over the time. Feo Ul mentions that if you take, then you have to give back to keep a balance. And maybe they never kept it and one day it was just too much.

Indeed, the cataclysms reason was never mentioned or explained, only its effects. Personally I doubt we'll go down with the "Creation magic is bad, mkay?" route, since that would make the Amaurotians plight a lot less sympathetic. Or it might mean they we're idiots for not drawing parallels between cause and effect, which isn't much better.

[Alleo]

Thats one way of interpreting it, and possibly the case, but we don't really know for sure. To be honest the Amaurotians seemed just bonkers enough to argue that no type of sacrifice is worth messing with the dead. Or maybe thinking as you do and assuming the cataclysm was their fault? All speculation at this point.

Of course its pure speculation right now but seeing how Emet does not like us as the new stewards and Hythlo hinting that other Ancients wanted to give the planet in the hands of the new life, really makes its quite hard to believe that we are talking about plants here. And seeing how only Ancient ones existed and the new races had to come from somehwere (since they must have existed before the sundering to be on these shards) then there is imo a high chance that the new life that was created after the calamity were the new races thus sapient beings.

And I also never said that them bringing their own doom was a fact so of course its still speculation. But at least with all the information we have right now its a good possibilty just like its a good possibility that there was an outside force. (But still kinda telling how helpless they were in the face of danger and how easily their magic could go out of control) I am not even blaming them for that. Things like that can happen all the time to all civilisations and did happen in our history too. I am a bit doubtful if the Zodiark plan was the best plan at hand and if they might have been too blind to see some other reasons (or maybe took too long to get one). But even that would still have been fine (minus the tempering part) but anything after that? That was their full own doing.

Its also not about creation magic being bad, its about using it too much without giving back. And they are not perfect beings. They have the same emotions as we do, they seemingly had enough problems in the world to create souls that wont pass on because of their immense anger and when doom was upon them they talked about it but seemingly did not do much. So it could simply be the case that they either did not notice is because it was happening at a very slow pace of a long amount of time or they were just blind to it. Even in our world most of us do know that certain problems will happen if we dont change our way of living. Does not stop us from still doing them.

About time traveling: Seeing how the exarch believed that he would fade away after the change was done and was suprised that it did not happen (which still could mean that the bad one was ereased but he remains there because of being a paradox and bound to the tower), I would take a guess and say that most of those working with that knew that there was a high risk of being ereased from existance. Heck even Emet himself talks about time travel like that because he wanted to have a world with no need of heroes and that we would be gone from that. So he too believed that the old time line will be overwritten. And so for me it makes sense that these people knew at least the huge amount of riks of doing that and still did it. I mean would it change the sacrifice of the ancient ones to summon and keep Zodiark fueled if later down the line they would have been brought back? No imo it would not. And thus I still see this as an example for a big sacrifice in the name of creating a better future for others.

(Also if you say that you dont count the bad time line because they were still doomed: Then why are we counting the ancient ones? They were only doing that sacrifice too when their world was doomed and they would have truly died anyway. So doesnt that mean that this race also has not done anything to show that they are better if we look at it like that? Heck when the bad events happened all over their world and other cities got destroyed they stood there and only discussed about helping them or not x))

To us Emet Selch is evil, but from his pov we are evil. Hell, if more of his people were around they would most likely feel the same about the WoL. We are more or less the giant barrier stopping his people from returning and living once more.

Would they? Hytho pointed out that it was the convocation (thus those tempered by Zodiark) that gave the idea of bringing back their lost ones after all was done by using the new life and this create such a big divide between their races for the first time ever. That does not sound like evey ancient one would have been for that. And what about those that sacrificed themselves? Would they be happy in being back (if they even can be back) while knowing that billions of life was destroyed for it? Including the split souls of their own people?

[Lersayil]

Fair points in there, only addressing the ones I disagree with on some level.

Its also not about creation magic being bad, its about using it too much without giving back. And they are not perfect beings.

Nothing we know currently about creation magic implies that it had a price other than aether and a proper idea, blueprint or image for the thing you want to do (cant recall the specific word they used). It was stated that the Amaurotians supplied that aether in full from their own reserves.

(Also if you say that you dont count the bad time line because they were still doomed: Then why are we counting the ancient ones? They were only doing that sacrifice too when their world was doomed and they would have truly died anyway.

There is a bit of difference between the two. The future Source was effed. No matter what they did they had no way out, no way to save themselves. The Amaurotians did. They died so the rest of THEIR society would live on. The Exarch and company just tried to make something good from their already certain doom. Its to be applauded, but its an easier decision to make, than sacrificing 75% of your people willingly to buy the rest a future. Just imagine the uproar, arguments and public disrest if we as a race would have to result this. I imagine many volunteering for their loved ones, but 75% is a heavy number.

Would they? Hytho pointed out that it was the convocation (thus those tempered by Zodiark) that gave the idea of bringing back their lost ones after all was done by using the new life and this create such a big divide between their races for the first time ever. That does not sound like evey ancient one would have been for that. And what about those that sacrificed themselves? Would they be happy in being back (if they even can be back) while knowing that billions of life was destroyed for it? Including the split souls of their own people?

If true I agree with you. I would also think that they made the story a lot more boring with it.

For now we can only speculate, since we didn't get many specifics about that post-Zodiark pre-Hydaelyn period. If Zodiark turns out to be a bad guy that brainwashed the Amaurotians, or the post-Zodiark Amaurotians just turn out to be selfish bastards, it would majorly undermine the sympathy they we're trying to build towards them sofar.

[Alleo]

Fair points in there, only addressing the ones I disagree with on some level.



Nothing we know currently about creation magic implies that it had a price other than aether and a proper idea, blueprint or image for the thing you want to do (cant recall the specific word they used). It was stated that the Amaurotians supplied that aether in full from their own reserves.



There is a bit of difference between the two. The future Source was effed.

Its Ysthola who believes that they have such huge amount of aether that they only used it themselves. She can be right but also wrong. And we know that people must have existed that had less aether because methods existed to help them "craft" stuff. Maybe some of those started to use the aether of the planet or maybe not. In the end up until they decided to sacrifice more after their planet was save, I could go with them. After that they went horrible wrong.

Well the source might have still lived on for a couple of centuries or not but in the end they sacrificed themselves so that others can life, just like Amaurotines did that. I also dont think its easier to make because there is nothing in the game that says that the source would have been gone the next day either. It was certainly in a very bad place since it did not get better after 200 years but we dont know if they would have died out. So they still made the decision to sent someone back with the knowledge that in the next second they might all be death and not remembered. While at least the surviving Amaurotines could mourn and remember the heroes that saved them. (I would also say that if doom would stand directly at the door of our city, which is when they started to react, that quite a lot of people would sacrifice themselves to give at least some of their loved ones a chance. )

Enjoying a well-written villain is one thing. Trying to paint the evil they do in a positive light within the actual context of the story is another, though I would be morbidly curious how even a fraction of his atrocities could be explained away as "heroic". It sounds about as convincing as when Blizzard skewered frightened civilians fleeing their village on pikes and tried to call it "morally grey".

Exactly. Just because he believed himself to be the hero of his own story does not make him one. He talks about his race but people of his race were against his plan. I really doubt that he would truly be seen as a shining hero to those. And if those sacrificed people came back and found out that they got back because their tempered members of their races killed billions of lifeforms over a huge amount of time, I really wonder if they would be fine with that. I mean those (which are the majority of the ones from Amaurot) did not even know about this plan so had no vote in it. But if even the surviors were split on this then those might be too. And on top of that I am not quite sure if they would like the idea of being tempered.

Sometimes villians no matter the motive will still be villians. You can enjoy them and like them but he is really not a hero in any way. Heck I really like his character but I would never see him as someone morally good. And even Yoshida in an interview pointed out that just because the ascians have reasons to do their stuff does not change the fact that they have just destroyed whole words to get to their goal.