Tank Balance Patch next pls? Nascent Flash Target Requirement Removed Pls

[Shurrikhan]

And if you're struggling with Beast Tribe quests on WAR, I'm not really sure what to say.

That's quite the strawman. One can leave out, say, Clemency or Spirit's Within and do casual content just fine as well. Does it then make sense to bar access to those, as well?

I agree that NF's design is currently haphazard. No other CD, in and of itself, provides simultaneous advantage for yourself and your cotank. And I'd be fine with it losing the self-heal in order to bring it back into line with other similar utilities.

But, for now, the self-heal exists and is situationally superior to RI, especially in casual content. Why give a tool a capacity that would make it ideal for X, but then bar from X? Either it should become quite clearly just an external support tool or it should be allowed in the situations it otherwise seems best for.

[Lyth]

...

It's your strawman, not mine. I just treated it with the derision that it was rightfully due.

But even if solo content self-healing is the hill that you want to die on, I'm curious to know why WAR should have an even bigger advantage over the other tanks in that area. Everyone has some degree of self-healing. Some, like WAR and PLD, are stronger than others to begin with. Why skew that even further?

And on a related note to that, if WAR is to be the undisputed king of self-healing, then why is the heal-or-die requirement on Living Dead and not on Holmgang, for the one tank that can actually potentially self-cleanse the effect (especially given that Holmgang is a clear winner post 5.1 over both Living Dead and Superbollide)?

[Shurrikhan]

It's your strawman, not mine. I just treated it with the derision that it was rightfully due.

But even if solo content self-healing is the hill that you want to die on, I'm curious to know why WAR should have an even bigger advantage over the other tanks in that area. Everyone has some degree of self-healing. Some, like WAR and PLD, are stronger than others to begin with. Why skew that even further?

And on a related note to that, if WAR is to be the undisputed king of self-healing, then why is the heal-or-die requirement on Living Dead and not on Holmgang, for the one tank that can actually potentially self-cleanse the effect (especially given that Holmgang is a clear winner post 5.1 over both Living Dead and Superbollide)?

Okay, on the off-chance your misconstruing my words is not intentional, let me be clear. Thinking that I should, say, be able to use Dragon Sight without having my Chocobo out in solo content does not make solo content "the hill I want to die on". Thinking NF might as well be usable in solo content without a Chocobo when it's designed as a stronger tool than RI when taking low, sustained damage does not make solo-content "the hill I want to die on." To say that solo content is irrelevant to anything that matters such that allowing NF to be used for beast tribe missions would in no way skew 8-man balance, especially in that NF without a target would still be less powerful than what we already have, does not make me someone "struggling with beast tribe quests" or wanting to make "WAR... the undisputed king of self-healing" (or, at least, no more than when I asked in 4.x that Dragon Sight be usable without a target would be requesting that DRG become the 'king of self-buffing'). The latter of each are how you've chosen to interpret my words, but they have no point in common with what I've written. Perhaps your definition of straw man differs from mine?

Someone can actually find a simple QoL change worthwhile without an urgent need for it. And it is a QoL change.

There is no possible way for a target-less NF to benefit anything but solo-play; identically to Dragon Sight, if one were to forfeit the secondary target effect, that's it -- you've gotten less out of the ability.

tl;dr: Allowing NF to be used without a target is insignificant except to convenience. It has no effect on group content. It can only cost throughput for its increase in convenience. It's a QoL buff.

[Reynhart]

It has no effect on group content.

But it has. I'm definitely not an expert to judge how big the effect is, but in situation where you are the last man standing, removing the target requirement on NF would allow WAR to do something it couldn't before.

Yes why not? War is at the bottom on dps chart so excessive deffensives will not be any problem since we already have drk with his magical shield.

WAR is at the bottom of DPS by a small margin, not an excessive one, so there's no reason for its mitigation to be excessively above other tanks. Especially since NF is already the only skill that offers eHP to both tanks at the same time, unless all of its counterparts.

[Shurrikhan]

But it has. I'm definitely not an expert to judge how big the effect is, but in situation where you are the last man standing, removing the target requirement on NF would allow WAR to do something it couldn't before.

And how many Savage runs are going to be won by a Warrior being the last one alive, with the boss at low enough HP to be killed before the Warrior dies despite NF being unavailable or the Warrior already effectively health-capped before the last person dies? You realize how many conditions have to be stacked to pull that needle out of the haystack of remotely reasonable events? If this were the deciding issue, every invuln that could last the two necessary seconds more would already be broken by the fact that it alone was able to finish the fight.

[Reynhart]

And how many Savage runs are going to be won by a Warrior being the last one alive, with the boss at low enough HP to be killed before the Warrior dies despite NF being unavailable or the Warrior already effectively health-capped before the last person dies ? You realize how many conditions have to be stacked to pull that needle out of the haystack of remotely reasonable events?

Like I said, I'm not able to judge how big this change would be or how many times it would save a situation that couldn't be saved before. It would still be more than a QoL change, since it would also modify every situation where the group is spread enough so that the WAR won't have a party member nearby, even if it's not necessarily game breaking.

If this were the deciding issue, every invuln that could last the two necessary seconds more would already be broken by the fact that it alone was able to finish the fight.

Pushed to the extreme, yes, invulns already have that kind of "issue"...with WAR also being the best one at this, with the shorter CD and the self-healing capabilites... that would be increased even more with the target removal.

[Shurrikhan]

[1] Like I said, I'm not able to judge how big this change would be or how many times it would save a situation that couldn't be saved before. It would still be more than a QoL change, since it would also modify every situation where the group is spread enough so that the WAR won't have a party member nearby, even if it's not necessarily game breaking.

[2] Pushed to the extreme, yes, invulns already have that kind of "issue"...with WAR also being the best one at this, with the shorter CD and the self-healing capabilites... that would be increased even more with the target removal.

[1] At that point, though is anything QoL? To use the Dragon Sight example again, would it? There's the one in a million chance, after all, that it'll come off cooldown right at the last 1% of boss HP before enrage and the DRG will need every drop of that 10% buff to carry the day. There's the chance that SMN DoTs being applied instantly instead of keeping their earlier artificial delay will have shifted an oGCD 600 ms earlier into a fight and therefore have allowed for one more use before a jump which in turn avoids enrage due to the extra 300 potency over the course of a fight.

To what extent are we going to belabor an insignificant advantage with an insignificant chance to see use in an insignificant portion of fights as if were something worth balancing around when the mere standard deviation attached to every attack, let alone Crit or Direct Hit chance, has several times their effect in every fight?

[2] Then... what? Remove all variance in tank toolkits? How often do you honestly expect that a Warrior will be the last man standing in any way that NF can generate a difference? I'd suspect the frequency of that particular potential clutch moment will be a heck of a lot less than what Clemency already provides.

[NyneSwordz]

It's your strawman, not mine. I just treated it with the derision that it was rightfully due.

But even if solo content self-healing is the hill that you want to die on, I'm curious to know why WAR should have an even bigger advantage over the other tanks in that area. Everyone has some degree of self-healing. Some, like WAR and PLD, are stronger than others to begin with. Why skew that even further?

And on a related note to that, if WAR is to be the undisputed king of self-healing, then why is the heal-or-die requirement on Living Dead and not on Holmgang, for the one tank that can actually potentially self-cleanse the effect (especially given that Holmgang is a clear winner post 5.1 over both Living Dead and Superbollide)?

You are still at it I guess. At least you're not calling folks despicable or shameless for asking QoL changes this time. And no, NF without target requirement doesn't break anything. It doesn't even affect balance. Read Shurrikhans reply. Especially when Paladin can solo heal an entire party with Clemency. It's a tiny QoL change. Why are you so aggro about it?