FF 5.X Alternative Raid Buff Alignment and Openers

[Arete-Nomos]

More feely craft not backed up by actual numbers.

[starlesss]

my advice to you after seeing your mch opener while being a mch main. dont change or create a opener when you dont know why certain skills are placed in certain times in the opener.

also balance openers are already based on raid buff alignment and so i dont get what your actually trying to achieve

[Oxdarock]

Speaking as someone who actually plays Red Mage, that opener makes me want to cry. First, the Embolden is extremely late. Second, Embolden should always be in the second weave slot to maximize the GCD gains for yourself and your party members. Third, the absolute earliest Acceleration can be used in the opener is at -16. Also, outside of fights like Eden Prime or Titania, a 10 spell opener is overall better thanks to the increased mana generation, which allows for more Reprise usage throughout the entire fight.

Ah! Thank you for pointing those out. You really only get the melee combo, VerFlare, and Scorch within Manafication, so those should definitely be switched. If the Embolden timing you're referring to after the first Corps-a-Corps with Engagement before Manafication, then I can say that the Embolden timing I'm going for does 30 potency more since it should catch the entire melee combo, plus Corps-a-Corps (plus both VerFlare and Scortch get an 8% damage boost).

Also, whoops! Made a big boo-boo with that Acceleration timing note. Forgot that the timer still counts down until all the stacks are used, so I'd probably advise using it as early as 15secs. Thank you.

[HyoMinPark]

Why would you ever delay Flourish as much as you have? And why start with a Fountain > Cascade combo when you should immediately be setting up Technical Step. Your second opener has the very likelihood of your Flourished procs falling out of your Technical Finish buff window, which is a huge no-no as it’s a major personal DPS loss. Flourish and Technical Finish compliment one another (TF’s buff is 20 seconds and all Flourished procs are 20 seconds), and should never be arbitrarily delayed for the weaker Fountain > Cascade combo (and subsequent, unaccounted for procs).

I’ll stick with the already established DNC opener, and I highly recommend all prospective DNCs and DNCs interested in optimizing do the same.

[Leidiriv]

Ah! Thank you for pointing those out. You really only get the melee combo, VerFlare, and Scorch within Manafication, so those should definitely be switched. If the Embolden timing you're referring to after the first Corps-a-Corps with Engagement before Manafication, then I can say that the Embolden timing I'm going for does 30 potency more since it should catch the entire melee combo, plus Corps-a-Corps (plus both VerFlare and Scortch get an 8% damage boost).

Also, whoops! Made a big boo-boo with that Acceleration timing note. Forgot that the timer still counts down until all the stacks are used, so I'd probably advise using it as early as 15secs. Thank you.

Regarding the Embolden, the recent balance changes have actually made it so RDM generally prefers to use Embolden after the 4th spell instead of after the 6th or 8th. The only exception is if we end up paired up with very back-loaded classes like SAM, in which case we still use it after the 6th spell.

Also, Corps-a-corps (along with all of RDM's oGCD abilities) are completely unaffected by Embolden, as RDM deals solely physical damage through their oGCD suite. Embolden only buffs RDM's Spells and Weaponskills.

[Oxdarock]

Why would you ever delay Flourish as much as you have? And why start with a Fountain > Cascade combo when you should immediately be setting up Technical Step. Your second opener has the very likelihood of your Flourished procs falling out of your Technical Finish buff window, which is a huge no-no as it’s a major personal DPS loss. Flourish and Technical Finish compliment one another (TF’s buff is 20 seconds and all Flourished procs are 20 seconds), and should never be arbitrarily delayed for the weaker Fountain > Cascade combo (and subsequent, unaccounted for procs).

I’ll stick with the already established DNC opener, and I highly recommend all prospective DNCs and DNCs interested in optimizing do the same.

So long as you get Bloodshower and FountainFall within Tech Finish, it's pretty much filled with GCDs over 300 potency. Also, double-weaving Devilment and Flourish causes clipping.

Besides, the bigger issue are the Saber Dance procs, as using them takes priority over Flourish moves within the Tech Finish window, even though it could cause you to lose a Flourish Procs (SE really needs to make it so that Saber Dance refreshes Flourish procs. At least by 5 secs...)

I wouldn't necessarily say that Flourish lines up perfectly with Tech Finish either because you could find yourself in a situation where you go into Tech Step with a Reverse Cascade and Fountainfall proc, as well as enough Espirit for a Saber Dance and/or Standard Step might come off of CD or be ready to go. Obviously, you don't want to overwrite those two procs and you'd want to hold it till after Saber Dance and Standard Step so you lower the risk of losing Flourish procs at all, let alone worrying about them falling out of the Tech Finish window.

[HyoMinPark]

So long as you get Bloodshower and FountainFall within Tech Finish, it's pretty much filled with GCDs over 300 potency. Also, double-weaving Devilment and Flourish causes clipping.

I’m very much aware. That why the standard opener has you do Tech Finish > Flourish > RW > Devilment. It avoids the clipping, and pushes your stronger procs into Trick Attack windows if your group is running a NIN.

Losing any procs during a TF window is still a personal DPS loss. You also aren’t accounting for Saber Dance pushing out Bloodshower and Fountainfall.

Besides, the bigger issue are the Saber Dance procs, as using them takes priority over Flourish moves within the Tech Finish window, even though it could cause you to lose a Flourish Procs (SE really needs to make it so that Saber Dance refreshes Flourish procs. At least by 5 secs...)

So you would obviously not want to exacerbate this issue by delaying Flourish as you have. With the standard opener, you are likely to get in all Saber procs and Flourished procs during your TF window. At most, you will lose out on 1 proc. Your proposed opener has you potentially losing more than that with a buff window because you want to, what? Cascade > Fountain at the start of the fight? That’s not optimal.

This is to say nothing that your arbitrary delay makes it very likely to lose out on a Flourish cast entirely, as it’s only 60 seconds. As it stands now, I’ve ended some runs losing out on a proc or two—but that’s better than losing an entire cast because you desire to change the established raid buff windows.

I wouldn't necessarily say that Flourish lines up perfectly with Tech Finish either because you could find yourself in a situation where you go into Tech Step with a Reverse Cascade and Fountainfall proc, as well as enough Espirit for a Saber Dance and/or Standard Step might come off of CD or be ready to go. Obviously, you don't want to overwrite those two procs and you'd want to hold it till after Saber Dance and Standard Step so you lower the risk of losing Flourish procs at all, let alone worrying about them falling out of the Tech Finish window.

You will never have a situation where you will have both Reverse Cascade and Fountainfall going into your TF window if you are managing procs correctly. At most, you end up with a delayed Flourish if your Flourish was delayed by a proc or two during the intermittent Flourish uses (i.e., the Flourishes between Technical Finish windows). The standard opener does not start with a Cascade > Fountain at all, thereby eliminating the possibility of ever having unaccounted for procs in your opener.

Did you consult with any of the DNC theorycrafters about these “openers”?

I cannot stress enough that the optimal way to play DNC has already been decided. As has its opener and general priority rotation. You admitted in another thread that you are only able to do simple maths. If you cannot do the math required to determine optimal play, perhaps you should stop trying to invent openers for the jobs. Your previous openers were suboptimal, as are these.



On an unrelated-to-DNC note, your DRG openers also have random uses of BotD after FnC or WT when there’s no reason to use it, as both FnC and WT extend BotD. It’s virtually impossible to drop BotD now, so there’s no reason to “refresh” it by pressing BotD. I’m not a DRG main, but even I know that’s a pointless button press. If you cannot fundamentally understand these jobs, why are you suggesting new openers for them?

[Oxdarock]

Regarding the Embolden, the recent balance changes have actually made it so RDM generally prefers to use Embolden after the 4th spell instead of after the 6th or 8th. The only exception is if we end up paired up with very back-loaded classes like SAM, in which case we still use it after the 6th spell.

Also, Corps-a-corps (along with all of RDM's oGCD abilities) are completely unaffected by Embolden, as RDM deals solely physical damage through their oGCD suite. Embolden only buffs RDM's Spells and Weaponskills.

Huh. That's...odd. Though it means that Corps-a-Corps, Displacement, and Fleche are all buffed by Brotherhood, so that's nice.

(I haven't switched the positions of Embolden and Manafication yet but continue reading this reply as if I have)

Anyway, even if it's used after the 4th spell instead of the 6th, the difference in the potency boost is still the same (actually 32 potency instead of 30) when using Embolden before the melee combo since all three weaponskills will fit within the first four seconds (Remember that weaponskills hit instantly, so the Enchanted Redoublement actually hits around 3 seconds rather than 5.2 seconds, which is about when VerFlare hits). Here's how it looks when you compare the potency of both situations within the first 4 seconds of Embolden:

VerStone + VerAero (300+350) x 1.1 = 715 - 650 = 65
Full Melee Combo (210+290+470) x 1.1 = 1067 - 970 = 97
97-65= 32

The difference pretty much widens from there since the latter is followed by VerFlare and Scortch, both with an 8% boost while VerFire and VerAero gets the 8% boost following a 4th GCD Embolden. And that's before I even add in the 5% damage boost from Manafication for the 8th GCD Embolden (which I honestly forgot to do), so the difference of the potency gained between both situations is actually higher.

[ForteNightshade]

Because I can, I'll pick apart Dragoon, and why both your suggested openers are significant DPS losses.

- Not only does the potion miss Chaos Thrust, a massive loss on its own, it won't even last long enough when you reach your second Full Thrust. Potions should either be used pre-pull at one second or following True Thrust; with Dragon Sight being used pre-pull instead.
- Why would delay Dragon Sight and Lance Charge by six and seven GCDs, respectively? That is an enormous loss that will inevitably cost you a use of both later into the fight. They should only ever be delayed in optimized settings where you know doing so won't cost you a usage.
- You never, ever lead with Jumps. Not only do they loss the benefits of your buffs, it serves you no purpose going into LotD early. Speaking of which...
- Don't go into LotD early unless a fight demands it. E3S comes to mind, where you'll lose Nastronds due to Maelstorm. Otherwise, going in early will cause your Nastronds to miss raid buffs further down the road.
- Why is BotD randomly used during the opening rotation? You delay Hi-Jump/Dragonfire Dive to press a button which is completely useless as you'll have full gauge because you literally just hit Fang and Wheeling.

That last point is probably the best demonstration of how little you understand about the jobs you're attempting to offer optimization on.

[AleXwern]

9th GCD IR/Del? I'm going to give that a hard pass. I really don't see the benefit of delaying 3 out of 4 tanks' biggest burst by an entire combo and/or a gauge spender.