Summoner is doing too much in 5.10

[Nemekh]

Saying most fights aren't like UCoB when the point is SMN is at its worst incarnation ever for downtime flexibility is doing a disservice to what Myon was trying to convey.

UCoB and Uwu are most definitely not comfy fights when you have variable nonsensical pushes from party dps variance that can make the fight go from tolerable to having barely anything for the phase. This can be experienced with Nael and trios+, this can be experienced with Primals - but at least there's the Ultima Weapon intermission to act as a grand reset and correct all of the timers for that reopener. We were incredibly fortunate that the first raid tier was fairly light in awkward jumps.

If we want to get particular, every expansion since Heavensward has been several steps backwards in downtime flexibility, from Aetherflow lock and the inability to have Stacks with Aethertrail on the same gauge slot, to rigid 60s Trance Timers and target required 30s Aetherflow stack generators. This is why the 55s Trance change, while a bit of a trap for the inexperienced, is huge just for having a bit of flexibility brought back to the job, just as instant Egi Assaults did with being able to use Ruin IV more flexibly and have more options for mobility. Now we can counteract and adjust for Trance drift whether forced or from downtime instead of only drifting forward.

Can you imagine how awful Polyglot would be if stacks had to literally be used on a target on cooldown the moment they became available or else the timer would freeze in place and forcibly drift? Things like that are not fun for any job.

[Kabooa]

Can you imagine how awful Polyglot would be if stacks had to literally be used on a target on cooldown the moment they became available or else the timer would freeze in place and forcibly drift? Things like that are not fun for any job.

You really don't have to imagine it with Polyglot, given that all cooldowns work in this manner.

[Nemekh]

You really don't have to imagine it with Polyglot, given that all cooldowns work in this manner.

They don't all require an enemy target to be used, but the ones that do, sure enough. I bring up Polyglot because it's directly comparable at 30s, but having the extra stack and the timer not freezing when max stacks are gained. Many Summoners have talked about the idea of Aetherflow being gained passively over time at 2 stacks/30s while in combat given that SE seem against the job ever getting the original Aetherflow back (which I would happily take over energy drain and siphon in a heartbeat).

The matter at hand is that SE went out of their way to make aspects of certain jobs more flexible with regards to downtime and with Summoner they went overboard in the other direction, for whatever the reason was. I for one am glad they've loosened that vice grip and admitted in previous discussions that they had gone about it wrong, in particular with how cooldowns would converge in a suboptimal manner. That is what lead to the cooldown adjustments with Trance.

[Kabooa]

They don't all require an enemy target to be used, but the ones that do, sure enough. I bring up Polyglot because it's directly comparable at 30s, but having the extra stack and the timer not freezing when max stacks are gained.

Just a weird distinction to make it sound like a Summoner only problem. Polyglot specifically mostly isn't comparable because everything a Black Mage does is tied to the GCD, so everything's relative strength is based on the average value of that GCD. I would think it more comparable to use AF/UI, because if we can't hit a thing, that hurts us much more directly given that everything is GCD based - Whether or not Polyglot stopped 'stacking' doesn't matter as much in this scenario. We're losing GCDs just like the Summoner loses potential Trance uses, but the difference is we can never get the GCD back, where as a Summoner both isn't always losing uses, and because it's OGCD, loses less for losing the GCDs since not everything is tied to it.

Anywho, I'm wondering what happens in 5.11's patch. Do Summoners lose the Raise, or do Black Mages get 20 potency on Fire 4?

Taking wagers!

[Zerathor]

Anywho, I'm wondering what happens in 5.11's patch. Do Summoners lose the Raise, or do Black Mages get 20 potency on Fire 4?

Taking wagers!

Going to pick a 3rd option and put $200 on squeenix doubling down on smn buffs, and buffing r3 and r2 by 20 potency

[Rika007]

Going to pick a 3rd option and put $200 on squeenix doubling down on smn buffs, and buffing r3 and r2 by 20 potency

And then nerfing Ranged physicals more.

[Nemekh]

snip

It was never said that this was a Summoner only problem, it was said that "Things like that are not fun for any job.". I focus on Summoner, however, and wrote many a detailed post, even a 26-minute video on how 5.0 release summoner faired especially in comparison to how it used to be, which is the topic of importance where steps backwards in design were taken, things that add to the "job stress" Yoshida is adamant about reducing. Please do not misconstrue this as anything BLM vs SMN.

Polyglot was brought up as an example of something that if it functioned like current Energy Drain it would be far, far worse. Just because it's on the GCD doesn't stop that it's a resource that cannot be expedited by speed and is on a hard 30s cd, just like ED, where the only thing that will drop the timer is losing Enochian and that only applies to the E1s cutscene in the current raid tier. Also, what you're talking about is the different nature of the caster models.

However, since we're talking caster, when I referred to measures in jobs to help make downtime more manageable an example of this would be Umbral Soul, or even now the current iteration of Reprise where RDMs having greater DPS positive control over their mana means they can sculpt their combo against awkward downtime and raid alignment better. These are positive changes and provide appreciable flexibility and ones Square Enix consciously are taking efforts towards all for the sake of "reducing job stress". It's not just about outright losses, but how things align with regards to said downtime. This is part of why, again, that Trances have had their cooldowns reduced to 55s despite the fact that Summoner still operates on a 2 minute cycle, it allows for some adjustments where before there were none. This still leaves ED as a point of irritation over SB era Aetherflow.

You don't appear to have that much experience of current era SMN having looked with a much greater emphasis in BLM play. If you want to better know the context, I recommend doing beyond e1s, be it Leviathan or Hades, especially getting your toes wet in ultimates older and soon new with the current incarnation of Summoner to know just how awkward the current design still is in 5.10. This is the better state of things after SE made adjustments to the job's mechanics. 5.0 was even worse, especially before the Fester Ruin removal. You know it also was the first time Yoshida has ever sincerely apologised for how messed up the devs had made an expansion release Summoner.

[Kabooa]

Please do not misconstrue this as anything BLM vs SMN.

My mistake.

Frankly I had no interest in summoner through every iteration. The only reason I took it into savage this time at all was because there was an extensive amount of negative reviews about it, and it's hard to offer suggestions to improve it if I haven't seen them first hand. I believe this was after the DoT Ruin interaction was removed, though I doubt it being in there still would have hampered my thoughts towards the job in general. Given my preferences it probably would have improved it.

[Myon88]

Just a weird distinction to make it sound like a Summoner only problem. Polyglot specifically mostly isn't comparable because everything a Black Mage does is tied to the GCD, so everything's relative strength is based on the average value of that GCD. I would think it more comparable to use AF/UI, because if we can't hit a thing, that hurts us much more directly given that everything is GCD based - Whether or not Polyglot stopped 'stacking' doesn't matter as much in this scenario. We're losing GCDs just like the Summoner loses potential Trance uses, but the difference is we can never get the GCD back, where as a Summoner both isn't always losing uses, and because it's OGCD, loses less for losing the GCDs since not everything is tied to it.

Funny you mention AF/UI, because it's also because of it that black mage benefits from downtime in a way summoner doesn't. The existence of AF and UI mean there is a distinction between which black mage gcds are strong and which are not, and as long as that distinction exists it can be exploited.

Take the fact that if they know a pause in combat is coming like maelstrom, saavy blms can time their rotation to end combat at the tail end of AF. Simply transpose and hit umbral soul and start building mp, hearts, and polyglot stacks while other jobs are twiddling their thumbs. When combat restarts, you begin again in AF with full resources. You've essentially chained two fire phases in a row, cut an ice phase out completely and raised the average value of your gcd in that fight.

It's a pretty good deal wouldn't you say? Sure you're 'not getting those gcds back', but you have the power to ensure the gcds you're throwing away are low value ice gcds you didn't care for anyway. This is like some company of fat cats making a big show of the donations they're providing, when it's actually being written off as a tax deductible behind the scenes. Don't make me laugh.

I really shouldn't have to be the one saying this considering I'm the newbie that learned black mage this tier. It's plain as day and immediately stands out as a strength of the job. Perhaps MP bars and enochian timers should be frozen when no target is present to foster more parity between toolkits. You might not understand the similarity between polyglot and aetherflow, but perhaps this one is more palatable to you.

[Kabooa]

I really shouldn't have to be the one saying this considering I'm the newbie that learned black mage this tier. It's plain as day and immediately stands out as a strength of the job. Perhaps MP bars and enochian timers should be frozen when no target is present to foster more parity between toolkits. You might not understand the similarity between polyglot and aetherflow, but perhaps this one is more palatable to you.

It's easy to lose the trees for the forests.

Starting off at 100% due to Umbral Soul is still a net loss due to the lost GCDs. Your time in Ice is heavily minimized to start with, so skipping a phase or two doesn't affect your final tally in a meaningful way. Much the same way that Ruin 4 getting a greater percentage of your GCDs due to Maelstrom wouldn't elevate your average damage that much.

Objectively I can't really argue against the fact Aetherflow is a more flexible resource gate than current Trance, but subjectively, rigid timers is all I know and work around, polyglot excluded. It's the same issue Machinist worked around in Stormblood with strict wildfire windows.