Summoner is doing too much in 5.10

[ForteNightshade]

I would personally consider the apparent generous tuning of smn to be fair reparations for the absolute butchering of the job's gameplay and skill ceiling from Stormblood. And I say 'apparent' because many 3rd party tools are still recovering from the transition to 5.1.

Can we please dispense with this flawed mentality? A job being broken in one patch or expansion shouldn't then be made overpowered in the next because reparations. It's the same nonsense people were arguing back in Stormblood that Ninja, Dragoon and Bard deserved to suffer since they were meta too long.

The only insistence should be proper balance between all jobs, and to point out when any one job is too weak or too strong.

[Myon88]

Can we please dispense with this flawed mentality? The only insistence should be proper balance between all jobs, and to point out when any one job is too weak or too strong.

No. I may call it reparations in jest, but there is a very real dps penalty that the Shadowbringers version of summoner incurs.

Consider a fight like ucob where the boss constantly disappears and becomes unattackable. If aetherflow came off cooldown just as it happened, you could still use it and just save your aetherflow charges and trances for when the fight resumed. Now think about what happens in the current system if something like firebird trance comes off cooldown at the same point. If you use it now, you'll basically waste it because there's nothing to hit, but if you hold it, you will delay all subsequent trances for the rest of the fight. This is a massive loss to flexibility and adaptive play and it has a real impact on dps. A summoner that got, say, 7 uses of dreadwyrm trance and bahamut in the old system, might only get 6 now in the same fight if timings are unkind. This is not about being petty or taking revenge, it's a real dps loss, how is the job being compensated for this?

If you slapped current potency numbers onto Stormblood summoner's rotation flow, oh boy then we'd all see what summoners outdamaging black mages really looks like. It'd be the seventh umbral calamity for blms all over again. If you don't like the idea of summoner putting out strong numbers, take solace in the fact that it's more like the other way around, their flawed design is keeping these numbers in check.

[Galvuu]

snip.

Alternatively, it could also happen that the downtime coincides with the period between the Demis, so you're almost always in Trance/Baha/Birb.
I tried SMN on UCoB in 5.0 and it felt surprisingly comfy...

Either way, your point is a bit dubious. It means that either the job is broken and unfun and that "balances out" their dps potential, or, in some fights, they don't have that issue and put out ridiculous numbers. Which shouldn't happen or be a factor in anything.
Plus, most jobs have limitations in some fights. That'd be like a melee qqing that they have to disengage for some mechanic or a BLM complaining that they have to move. This kinda limitation is an inherent part of melees/casters.
UCoB is also a very unique example in downtime. Most fights aren't like that at all.

[ForteNightshade]

No. I may call it reparations in jest, but there is a very real dps penalty that the Shadowbringers version of summoner incurs.

Consider a fight like ucob where the boss constantly disappears and becomes unattackable. If aetherflow came off cooldown just as it happened, you could still use it and just save your aetherflow charges and trances for when the fight resumed. Now think about what happens in the current system if something like firebird trance comes off cooldown at the same point. If you use it now, you'll basically waste it because there's nothing to hit, but if you hold it, you will delay all subsequent trances for the rest of the fight. This is a massive loss to flexibility and adaptive play and it has a real impact on dps. A summoner that got, say, 7 uses of dreadwyrm trance and bahamut in the old system, might only get 6 now in the same fight if timings are unkind. This is not about being petty or taking revenge, it's a real dps loss, how is the job being compensated for this?

If you slapped current potency numbers onto Stormblood summoner's rotation flow, oh boy then we'd all see what summoners outdamaging black mages really looks like. It'd be the seventh umbral calamity for blms all over again. If you don't like the idea of summoner putting out strong numbers, take solace in the fact that it's more like the other way around, their flawed design is keeping these numbers in check.

You're twisting my words with that last sentence. What I don't like is previously what I said in my original post: jobs being punished or deserving excessive buffs simply because of poor balance in the past. Summoner being inconsistent in some fights is a design flaw within the job itself. The solution isn't to compensate it with exaggerated numbers. All that accomplishes is making it flat better in fights where it's rotation isn't held back. You cite ucob, which has substantial downtime whereas most of the current Savage lacks said downtime. Therein lies the issue. Balancing jobs around flawed or straight up broken mechanics will inevitably cause far more harm than good.

The solution is to fix Summoner so it remains relatively consistent throughout each fight. Doing otherwise is repeats the mistakes which led to Summoner's insane overtuning in 4.1 or nonsense like the Bard/Machinist buff wars of Heavensward that outright killed the Casters. Just to name a couple examples where the devs made problems worse because they didn't address the actual issue but slap band-aids on it.

Anywho, I'm wondering what happens in 5.11's patch. Do Summoners lose the Raise, or do Black Mages get 20 potency on Fire 4?

Taking wagers!

I'll put my money on they do absolutely nothing and insist everything's fine because "all jobs can clear"

[Kabooa]

I'll put my money on they do absolutely nothing and insist everything's fine because "all jobs can clear"

Eh. I mean, it's technically true.

At least we're still good in speedruns?