Summoner is doing too much in 5.10

[Myon88]

Oh but I did, that's why I'm only saying this now and not three days ago right after the patch dropped. After careful consideration I believe these changes to be both prudent and justified, and I also laid out the basis for why. So thanks for quoting me because it honestly bears repeating.

Do you know what else summoners have 'zero issues' with? They have no issues playing their sister class rdm when even more raise power is needed for cutting edge progression, nor did they have issues biting the bullet and playing blm for clears and parses in Eden a couple of months ago. They certainly do not stamp their feet and demand other jobs be kneecapped, just so they have an excuse to play a one-trick job in every piece of game content.

I'm not as magnanimous as Nemekh is, which is why summoners are very lucky to have advocates like that.

[ShadowNyx3]

Now that the tables are turned they are back to whining that they might have to play a different job for progression - you know, the thing you do for maybe 2 or 3 weeks out of the entire year.

The only people who have to play a different job for progression are those that are on the cutting edge, which is a far less percentage of people than actually realize it. While some disappointment is fine over a favorite job not being in the best of states, anyone taking raiding seriously isn't going to just flat out refuse to adjust like your bellyaching detractor above.

[Trunks]

i quit white mage to play black mage and now i'm white mage again

[alchemi80]

I read this whole thread, and I do have an honest question as a newer player. None of this really matters if you're not parsing 99% and/or doing brand new progression, correct? A class doing 1k more dps than another is only a matter for people executing rotation perfectly, a.k.a. the professionals? Not meant to be a jab.

[Lina_Slayer]

With way more parses now it looks like SAM, BLM, SMN are the new BLM,MNK,DRG, so the ones who get the short end of the stick are not us BLMs it's the historical 2nd melee (tho in some fights like Levi 2 melee should still be king), which is great in my book, melee jobs should realize they are not entitled to two raid spots,

[Trunks]

I read this whole thread, and I do have an honest question as a newer player. None of this really matters if you're not parsing 99% and/or doing brand new progression, correct? A class doing 1k more dps than another is only a matter of perfect rotation, a.k.a. the professionals? Not meant to be a jab.

This is wrong. In fact, the worse your group is - or rather, the slower its progression - the more of a burden it is to play a gimped Job. In this case, playing BLM on progression basically requires you to just die a lot because you have to pre-plan everything you do around the flow of mechanics. This is compounded the more complex a fight gets, e.g., phase 1 of E4S has two different patterns and you have to learn the flow of each. For a group that does not raid much - maybe 6 to 8 hours a week - this is actually more harmful, because overtaxing the healers is the primary cause of wipes when you're progressing.

The underlying assumption of the argument you're advancing is that people who aren't "cutting edge 99% elitists" must all be a bunch of braindead "play whatever's fun!" sunshine-and-rainbow types. This is not the case. I don't have a huge amount of time to commit, so I only raid ~6 hours a week. But I want to kill bosses and be a team player. If there's no reward for the extra effort to play BLM, literally all I am doing is wasting the very limited time of my raid; that, in turn, limits the scope of content we can do together - if we are still doing Titan, we're not going to get meaningful time on Ultimates. Progression on bosses can drag into weeks (especially if people quit the static, or if you have retail workers in your static, or whatever other wrench life can throw at you) like this, and it feels horrible to have a sense that you're slowing the group down. On top of that, if you know that your group does not have the best players, part of being a team player is doing your best to compensate for that. This is something I know all too well, having played WHM up until ShB, and having to drop it on a few occasions in favor of AST because of bad tanks who couldn't hold aggro during prog.

And that's before we even get to talking about how the community develops narratives which systematically lock people out of statics or PUGs. This is where BLM has wound up during Ultimates in the past, where groups just wouldn't take you. ShB's changes did help mitigate some of the issues that caused this, but those are pretty much negated by the overtuning of SMN. Why bring something that does less DPS, is less mobile (and thus dies more), and doesn't have a rez to the hardest content in the game? For me, what's worse is the feeling of forcing a group to bring something that I know is inferior. It really sucks the fun out of it, because you're bringing nothing else to the table.

[Shiroe]

I'm a Blm and I'm getting an inferior complex towards Smn xD

I need longer to optimise heavy movement fights (if I can optimise them at all)

I grant no utility for my companions

I can't rez fallen members

.... and I'm doing less rdps than a Smn

(this is, what Blm felt like in 4.1 ... and Sam in 5.0 towards Mnk)

[Akiudo]

I read this whole thread, and I do have an honest question as a newer player. None of this really matters if you're not parsing 99% and/or doing brand new progression, correct? A class doing 1k more dps than another is only a matter for people executing rotation perfectly, a.k.a. the professionals? Not meant to be a jab.

not really, chances are if a class does 1000 dps more at 99 it will also do 1000 (or at least 800) more at 75%, or 50% , and in that regard its not only cutting edge progression, like yes, that where its most important, but exactly because not everyone can be the 99% allways top gameplay world first type of player it will allways be relevant.

imagine your group is doing a fight that needs 75000 raid dps, your group is doing 74.500-75.500 in an average try if no one dies (doesnt matter if this means your group sucks ass by current standarts or whatever, thats completly irrelevant to the discussion) , basically you get through if no one messes up and you got a good run as a group.

now imagine you change your class and suddenly you got a 1000 dps buffer, imagine a second player does the same and goes from one of the weaker to the stronger classes and suddenly you got a buffer of 1,5-2k. that may not sound like much, but in practice this is huge

[Zerathor]

not really, chances are if a class does 1000 dps more at 99 it will also do 1000 (or at least 800) more at 75%, or 50% , and in that regard its not only cutting edge progression, like yes, that where its most important, but exactly because not everyone can be the 99% allways top gameplay world first type of player it will allways be relevant.

imagine your group is doing a fight that needs 75000 raid dps, your group is doing 74.500-75.500 in an average try if no one dies (doesnt matter if this means your group sucks ass by current standarts or whatever, thats completly irrelevant to the discussion) , basically you get through if no one messes up and you got a good run as a group.

now imagine you change your class and suddenly you got a 1000 dps buffer, imagine a second player does the same and goes from one of the weaker to the stronger classes and suddenly you got a buffer of 1,5-2k. that may not sound like much, but in practice this is huge

And now imagine that job that is providing that damage buffer also can just raise people if they need to, because why the hell not.

[alchemi80]

Thanks to all of you. That was very enlightening and explained a lot of things that are kind of hard to grasp for a new player, most specifically about the culture behind raid progression and taking meta roles. I didn't expect such detailed responses for a question with a likely obvious answer to most of you