Tank Balance Patch next pls? Nascent Flash Target Requirement Removed Pls

[Argyle_Darkheart]

Intervention provides no benefit to the caster, so the comparison is poor; when I say "function," I am also considering "effect."

Edit: Just so it's clear, I don't care that Nascent Flash requires a target.

[whiskeybravo]

Intervention provides no benefit to the caster, so the comparison is poor; when I say "function," I am also considering "effect."

Alright, so it functions similar to Intervention and its effect is similar to Clemency. Both "support" CDs, although the latter can be used by the PLD as a stop-gap personal CD to some degree (at a cost, ofc).

NF is a support CD that people wish was a personal CD, or at least an independent hybrid between the 2 in some capacity. That's what this whole argument seems to be about anyways.

The problem I see is if WAR is to gain a personal CD, then it has to lose something else. Unless we're just demanding buffs because WAR is supposed to be the best tank ever and always. It's a matter of give and take, or opportunity cost. Personally, I'd rather NF stay like it is if it means we'd have to lose something in return. If it's just going to be a free buff, well, I'm not going to complain - but I'm also not going to advocate for that.

[Raldo]

Holy shit, this thread. I said it last time this came up, and I'll say it again. Dragon Sight, like Nascent Flash, is a boon for two people. Yet Dragon Sight is allowed to be used on yourself, thus not giving the other benefit to another player. There is literally no reason not to apply the same rule to Nascent Flash.

[whiskeybravo]

Holy shit, this thread. I said it last time this came up, and I'll say it again. Dragon Sight, like Nascent Flash, is a boon for two people. Yet Dragon Sight is allowed to be used on yourself, thus not giving the other benefit to another player. There is literally no reason not to apply the same rule to Nascent Flash.

Sure there is. For one, WAR's probably wouldn't bother even trying to target a party member to use it after that change. In the bigger scheme of things that pushes players toward more selfish play, instead of the direction of team play. (the demand itself already shows the degree of selfishness that's taken hold of the community) Should PLD be able to Intervention himself, too? Should Cover still have an effect if used in the absence of party members? There are clearly situational, group based abilities already existing that don't seem to be a problem. Second, WAR doesn't "need" the self healing for any normal solo endeavors, tanks in general have plenty of survivability. The only argument anyone can make otherwise uses outdated unsynced content that's run mostly out of sheer boredom. Outdated content shouldn't be made into a baseline for job balancing, and clearly they haven't cared about any of the other job changes that effected old content over the course of the expansions.

I understand the sentiment, don't get me wrong. I miss Bloodbath as much as any WAR. While what we got in NF isn't as good as it could've been, simply releasing the target requirement only creates an excuse for the implementation of a half-ass solution by SE instead of something that could be more thoughtful and interesting, while at the same time leaving the door open for something to get axed in return.

[Launched]

NF is a support CD that people wish was a personal CD, or at least an independent hybrid between the 2 in some capacity. That's what this whole argument seems to be about anyways.

The problem I see is if WAR is to gain a personal CD, then it has to lose something else. Unless we're just demanding buffs because WAR is supposed to be the best tank ever and always.

Nascent Flash IS a personal cooldown. It's been used that way for an entire raid tier, I've used it far more often than Raw Intuition since unlocking it. Most of the time, you will have a party member to target so you can get the effect, even if you're not going to make any use of the buff on your party member. Letting it be used just on yourself doesn't give WAR a new cooldown, it just makes things less annoying than having to target another party member manually or using a macro that can't be queued. It's always going to share a cooldown with RI so you're not exactly getting anything new, it's a choice between the two every 25 seconds. And anyway, WAR is by far the least played tank right now for a reason. This is a small QoL change that won't make it any stronger so there's no reason to think WAR should lose anything at all.

[Talam]

Sure there is. For one, WAR's probably wouldn't bother even trying to target a party member to use it after that change. In the bigger scheme of things that pushes players toward more selfish play, instead of the direction of team play. (the demand itself already shows the degree of selfishness that's taken hold of the community) Should PLD be able to Intervention himself, too? Should Cover still have an effect if used in the absence of party members? There are clearly situational, group based abilities already existing that don't seem to be a problem. Second, WAR doesn't "need" the self healing for any normal solo endeavors, tanks in general have plenty of survivability. The only argument anyone can make otherwise uses outdated unsynced content that's run mostly out of sheer boredom. Outdated content shouldn't be made into a baseline for job balancing, and clearly they haven't cared about any of the other job changes that effected old content over the course of the expansions.

I understand the sentiment, don't get me wrong. I miss Bloodbath as much as any WAR. While what we got in NF isn't as good as it could've been, simply releasing the target requirement only creates an excuse for the implementation of a half-ass solution by SE instead of something that could be more thoughtful and interesting, while at the same time leaving the door open for something to get axed in return.

No, I don't think you do, because I use NF all the time when doing dungeon runs for mob packs and it'd be a nice QoL change to not have to change targets, or have to use a macro to compensate for it. Also, in dungeons, since I'm usually the only one getting punched in the face by a boss, there's no real need to use it on someone else the majority of the time.

And then there's the raids, both 8-man and 24. In the 8-man, if I'm main tanking, no one else really needs to be NF do they? And if I'm not main tanking, then yea, of course the main tank is getting NF. As for alliance raids, that's just a clown fiesta. I think opening NF to self-cast and also alliance members would do wonders.

[whiskeybravo]

Nascent Flash IS a personal cooldown. It's been used that way for an entire raid tier, I've used it far more often than Raw Intuition since unlocking it. This is a small QoL change that won't make it any stronger so there's no reason to think WAR should lose anything at all.

Eh. It's a support CD which benefits the user, merely using it as if it's a personal CD doesn't really change that. It was supposed to be WAR's support option, obviously, or it wouldn't require a party member to target for it's execution.

Perhaps it wouldn't make WAR any "stronger" if removed, in party content at least, but if people have been using it as is for so long already, like DRG used Dragon Sight for (nearly?) a whole expansion before it got changed, then what's the actual problem? I just get the feeling if WAR was at the top of the damage charts there wouldn't be much discussion about this at all. I've said from the beginning this is all about the player's ego, which is demonstrated by continually including statements like "WAR is by far the least played tank right now", as if it's a justification to give us something to feel better about. Then again, maybe I'm just old.

[Shurrikhan]

ToB + Equilibrium + NF and Inner Chaos can heal you to full during 6s. It has its drawback of requiring a party member, but it's still something only WAR can do, and with very short anticipation.

Right, I only need to hold my secondary TB CD, my on-demand, my bonus CD, and my dps CD for this period where I'm dropped to nearly zero HP.

Doesn't this point out an issue with WAR burst far more than it does with NF itself. If by the sheer concentration of their burst, a Bloodbath is now a Benediction, how do you imagine that carries over to the feeling of gameplay between bursts? Hint: Your actions kinda feel like white damage...

You've got 4 parts in use there. You blame 1 of them for the result despite it being relatively balanced against RI outside of IC/IR. So, where's the real issue?

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

You never know, SE might remove the heal aspect from the WAR, but keep it on the intended target just for laughs to hear them cry some more. Complaining about targetting...gtfo, cover, intervention, TBN on another player and Dragon Sight (to sn extent) all have targetting requirements so "clunkiness" isn't just a you problem and they ain't difficult to macro targetting. The skill was primarily designed as an OT function with some WAR flavour, but the BS crying is kinda pathetic, but I've said before, give PLD the ability to intervention itself with the ability to buff via rampart and Sentinel, then and only then, should WAR be able to target themselves with NF.

Also keep PvP out of PvE please, there's it's own forum dedicated to it, this is not the correct place to post in regards to it.

[NyneSwordz]

You never know, SE might remove the heal aspect from the WAR, but keep it on the intended target just for laughs to hear them cry some more. Complaining about targetting...gtfo, cover, intervention, TBN on another player and Dragon Sight (to sn extent) all have targetting requirements so "clunkiness" isn't just a you problem and they ain't difficult to macro targetting. The skill was primarily designed as an OT function with some WAR flavour, but the BS crying is kinda pathetic, but I've said before, give PLD the ability to intervention itself with the ability to buff via rampart and Sentinel, then and only then, should WAR be able to target themselves with NF.

Also keep PvP out of PvE please, there's it's own forum dedicated to it, this is not the correct place to post in regards to it.

There is no targetting requirement on tbn or eye so i don't know what you're talking about.

How about we add a targetting requirement to clemency and see how paladins like it. Or limit it to equilibriums cd to make it "fair."

I already got a macro for nf thanks and i already explained that clunkiness has to do with restriction on use.

Oh, and if se wanted wars to use nf in partied groups with other players only, they ought to really not allow it to be used on chocobos or friendly npcs.

Might as well be consistent if thats what they wanted.

And i dont get the argument that removing target requirement would be a buff because it wouldnt affect dungeons or raids other than allow for the war to use nf in the off chance all party members died in a dungeon, and be able to use it in overworld without having to summon a chocobo, or use in instanced quests without having to target a friendly npc.

And if you think using nf on self in solo content or dungeons is somehow overpowered, they should really take a nerf bat to clemency.