If running a parser makes you cynical and depressed, why do it?

[Vidu]

No, it's not an obligation, it's absolutely a courtesy. Again, these are story dungeons scaled specifically so new players who don't know what they're doing can still progress without issue. It's their content; designed for them. Would it go faster if everyone was in HQ gear pulling perfect rotations? Sure... It's not anyone's responsibility to make it as fast as humanly possible for you, though.

There's content specifically designed for your mindset and content specifically designed for casual play. Story dungeons are casual. If they're not AFK and the content is moving along without wipes, which it always does, then there's no issue.

And again: No one is talking about making it "as fast as humanly possible". No one is asking that everyone should be pulling purple parsers. At least I'm asking for everyone to pull their weight with in appropriate boundaries. Anything that isnt pressing buttons at random on your keyboard is already "optimization". Following your rotation is "optimization" - you seem to have missed that point.
Yes, I dont need a parser to see that this RDM isnt AoEing when they should, but a parser can definitly make it easier to spot that (instead of having to look at peoples castbars 100% of the time - which is something I can do when playing tank, but if I'm dpsing myself, I'm way more focussed on my own rotation and with a bard as a main-dps on procs etc.)
Not everyone run has to be finished in 10 minutes - but a run also doesnt need to take more than half an hour to complete, considering that the average clear time is something between 15 and 20 minutes.

Also: Content is not always moving along without wipes. Most of the time it is, but since we dont have a permanent "Hallowed"-buff on everyone for the duration of a run wipes do happen. It might even be really easy to pinpoint why a particular wipe happend or even who caused it. And at that point its all about attitude - and that goes for everyone. While no one needs to be harrassed or insulted about causing a wipe, that person also needs to weither take advice on how to handle whatever caused the wipe or, if they cant or dont want to do that, leave the dungeon. Preferably on their own account, but going by some statments here I'm wondering if a silent kick without offering advice first might not even be the better way to go, to not offend anyone...

Sadly, enrages arent really a thing in "casual" content - technically some bossfights have some sort of enrage, thinking about Vishap for example or, as I'm assuming, the last boss of Amarout - which in turn means that dps-jobs can get away with extremly poor play without any real consequences, which leads to this idea that you dont need to care or take this content serious since its trivial anways. I'm not calling for Savage-difficulty, but without enrage the burden of a dungeon-run isnt really distriputived evenly. A dps can die their way through a boss-fight - if the healer dies and you dont happen to have a RDM or SMN around or a tank who can heal through the rest of the fight, its game over.
And its okay that some jobs carry less responsibility than others - but as it currently stands a dps can roll their face over their keyboard and the dungeon will still be cleared if the other 3 people are playing decent and thats somehow okay with you?

[Alynn]

Roulettes are optional, and story content is in them specifically so new players won't have ridiculously long queue's. You get rewarded for running them, and get rewarded moreso for running them with new players. That's your incentive to deal with the pitfalls of running casual content with new players. If it's not worth it then again, roulettes are optional.

Also, if it were an obligation then you could report people for not knowing basic stuff. The only obligations are to contribute and make progress.

Yeah it's called kicking people for having difference in playstyles. Don't BabyRage at me if I do it because I repeatedly tell you to AOE or to not eat the AOES lmao. I don't go out of my way to correct people most of the time since its really trivial. But if I SEE YOU NOT AOEING or doing some mad chaos, you'd best believe I'm going to gently remind you a few times and if you still refuse you're getting the boot.

How do you contribute and make progress when you don't have a sturdy foundation? Do babies start running before they start walking now or what?

[Goji1639]

Vidu,

Yes, in story dungeons DPS have virtually no responsibility or impact on the groups ability to clear content. That's why a lot of new players play DPS specifically; there's a general understanding that a Tank and/or Healer need to at least somewhat know what they're doing. It's why queue's for this content are usually stuck looking for a tank or healer. It's just the nature of MMO's.

Not getting into whether or not that's fair, it is what it is. The fact still remains that it's trivial content, and can be completed easily even if new players (who play DPS) don't know what they're doing. I get that you have this concept that everyone needs to be trying hard just "because," but that's not how this content was designed. It's only for fun, pure and simple, and it's perfectly accommodated to people who want to have fun without being too serious about it.

[Goji1639]

Yeah it's called kicking people for having difference in playstyles. Don't BabyRage at me if I do it because I repeatedly tell you to AOE or to not eat the AOES lmao. I don't go out of my way to correct people most of the time since its really trivial. But if I SEE YOU NOT AOEING or doing some mad chaos, you'd best believe I'm going to gently remind you a few times and if you still refuse you're getting the boot.

How do you contribute and make progress when you don't have a sturdy foundation? Do babies start running before they start walking now or what?

You can technically vote kick someone for any reason, but if you're kicking new players for not knowing their class or abilities it likely won't end well for you if the new player decides to report you.

Gentle reminders are fine. Even a vote kick is fine if the group is stalemated because of a player who doesn't know his class and can't figure it out right there. If things are moving along fine, however, there's really no justification. It's just being petty.

[Vidu]

Vidu,

Yes, in story dungeons DPS have virtually no responsibility or impact on the groups ability to clear content. That's why a lot of new players play DPS specifically; there's a general understanding that a Tank and/or Healer need to at least somewhat know what they're doing. It's why queue's for this content are usually stuck looking for a tank or healer. It's just the nature of MMO's.

Not getting into whether or not that's fair, it is what it is. The fact still remains that it's trivial content, and can be completed easily even if new players (who play DPS) don't know what they're doing. I get that you have this concept that everyone needs to be trying hard just "because," but that's not how this content was designed. It's only for fun, pure and simple, and it's perfectly accommodated to people who want to have fun without being too serious about it.

As I said: I'm okay with DPS having less responsibilty.
I'm also okay with new players needing to learn and therefor missing crucial aspects of their rotation while learning and improving over time.

I'm not okay with this attitude of "lol, its only a leveling dungeon, as a dps I dont matter anyways, just here for fun, dont care about anything" which you seem to love so much.
Why is "being serious enough about content to follow your rotation and make proper use of your toolset" such an un-fun and terrible thing to do? How does one play solo games with that attitude? Or does one simply not do that because they'd get stuck after the tutorial and has to fall back to a game in which other people essentially play it for them?

[Goji1639]

As I said: I'm okay with DPS having less responsibilty.
I'm also okay with new players needing to learn and therefor missing crucial aspects of their rotation while learning and improving over time.

I'm not okay with this attitude of "lol, its only a leveling dungeon, as a dps I dont matter anyways, just here for fun, dont care about anything" which you seem to love so much.
Why is "being serious enough about content to follow your rotation and make proper use of your toolset" such an un-fun and terrible thing to do? How does one play solo games with that attitude? Or does one simply not do that because they'd get stuck after the tutorial and has to fall back to a game in which other people essentially play it for them?

I'm well aware that you're not OK with new players just wanting to have fun. Fortunately for them what you're OK with isn't what determines what they're obligated to do and what they're allowed to find fun. The story dungeons are scaled as they are specifically so new players can be "just here for fun," and the content will still get done without issue. That's an option SE wanted new players who are only really interested in the story to have.

Not everyone has the same concept of fun that you do. So, your best option is to accept that, take the rewards that SE gives you for running roulettes with "those people," and go about your business without any impulsive need to fix other players unnecessarily.

[Alynn]

I'm well aware that you're not OK with new players just wanting to have fun. Fortunately for them what you're OK with isn't what determines what they're obligated to do and what they're allowed to find fun. The story dungeons are scaled as they are specifically so new players can be "just here for fun," and the content will still get done without issue. That's an option SE wanted new players who are only really interested in the story to have.

Not everyone has the same concept of fun that you do. So, your best option is to accept that, take the rewards that SE gives you for running roulettes with "those people," and go about your business without any impulsive need to fix other players unnecessarily.

So this is what it boils down to lol.

Props to Vidu for having the patience of a saint bc I can't cope and whatever type of logic I write down gets read superficially and then forgotten. How dare you try to help players learn their rotation and break bad habits >: (. Just eat the 45 minute dungeon time bc you're getting tomes and free exp for carrying people who have zero interest in doing their part because the content doesn't belong to you even though we all pay for the same thing, you anti-fun elitist wenches >: (

[Goji1639]

So this is what it boils down to lol. Props to Vidu for having the patience of a saint bc I can't cope and whatever type of logic I write down gets read superficially and then forgotten. How dare you try to help players learn their rotation and break bad habits >: (. Just eat the 45 minute dungeon time bc you're getting tomes and free exp for carrying people who have zero interest in doing their part because the content doesn't belong to you even though we all pay for the same thing, you elitist wenches >: (

lol, ironic post from you. I've already said offering advice is fine, but not everyone is going to want it. Go ahead and kick new players for not obeying you if you want, but you'll likely eventually get reported.

Again, it's casual content for casual players. The fact that it might occasionally take an extra 10 minutes because people are new/casual is why you're getting roulette rewards and new player rewards. So, suck it up.

Sorry, homie, but if i have to tell you to AoE or the basics of your rotation more than once in a level 75 dungeon more than once you're getting the boot. And if youre wearing terrible gear itll be the swiftest, most silent kick in the midwest. "Well, there wasnt a wipe," is an awful justification for being a bad party member.

I have tons of patience for new players. That patience starts wearing mighty thin at level 60 and up.

I haven't done any 70+ content yet, so maybe it's more difficult. Since trusts are an option then new players can just do those if they want to have fun anyways.

In everything I've done, however, it hasn't mattered. It's like a 10-15 minute difference at worst if the DPS don't know what they're doing, and you still never wipe. I've not yet seen a reason to care much that a new player wasn't taking it all super seriously.

Also, hit my post limit. Take care everyone.



Vidu, may as well address your last post.

1) That's fine; if everyone's polite about it then it's not much of an issue. Problem is that "play my way or you're gone," people tend to not be able to stop themselves from picking a fight in chat.

2) You don't get that many new players because comparatively speaking there aren't as many. Also, I'm talking about leveling and MS roulettes mainly, which are the ones specifically to help new players.

3) Like I said, you're not carrying anyone that is participating. The dungeons are easy enough to clear with a "just for fun," attitude, so you tryharding your way through it isn't really carrying anyone. You're saving them a little time, which is nice, but not necessary.

4) That's cool, I was kind of hoping this game would eventually get challenging. The casual story is fun, but the gameplay does get boring. I'm kind of surprised they would make the trusts weak, though; I assumed they were the casual option. That's a shame for new players; guess they're stuck with you and you with them. It really is a shame that there's no way for casual players to enjoy the story without dealing with people like you, and vice versa.

5) Yea, once you get past the story and start running level 80 content you're no longer new. People who continue on with that content likely intended to play seriously, and should know what they're doing.

But for someone whos only playing for fun it shouldnt really matter that they might take 50 instead of 15 minutes, that they wipe a couple of times or probably have to re-try the whole thing... right? They're just playing for fun, after all.

Yep, doesn't matter how long it takes, as long as it can be cleared with casual play.

I honestly wouldn't care if the whole game was more difficult and took longer. Problem is that it's not difficult, AT ALL until you get to Savages/Utlimates/etc. Pretending you need to be on top of people, antagonizing and pushing them, in what is one of the easiest games I've ever played is just absurd. I mean, if it felt like it was even possible to fail these dungeons I might see your point, but you're all just being ridiculous. There's NO reason to not let people just have their fun in the faceroll parts of this game.

[Mavrias]

You can technically vote kick someone for any reason, but if you're kicking new players for not knowing their class or abilities it likely won't end well for you if the new player decides to report you.

Gentle reminders are fine. Even a vote kick is fine if the group is stalemated because of a player who doesn't know his class and can't figure it out right there. If things are moving along fine, however, there's really no justification. It's just being petty.

Sorry, homie, but if i have to tell you to AoE or the basics of your rotation more than once in a level 75 dungeon you're getting the boot. And if youre wearing terrible gear itll be the swiftest, most silent kick in the midwest. "Well, there wasnt a wipe," is an awful justification for being a bad party member.

I have tons of patience for new players. That patience starts wearing mighty thin at level 60 and up.

[Vidu]

lol, ironic post from you. I've already said offering advice is fine, but not everyone is going to want it. Go ahead and kick new players for not obeying you if you want, but you'll likely eventually get reported.

Again, it's casual content for casual players. The fact that it might occasionally take an extra 10 minutes because people are new/casual is why you're getting roulette rewards and new player rewards. So, suck it up.


I haven't done any 70+ content yet, so maybe it's more difficult. Since trusts are an option then new players can just do those if they want to have fun anyways.

In everything I've done, however, it hasn't mattered. It's like a 10-15 minute difference at worst if the DPS don't know what they're doing, and you still never wipe. I've not yet seen a reason to care much that a new player wasn't taking it all super seriously.

Also, hit my post limit. Take care everyone.

Just a few last thoughts here before I hit my patience-limit:

1) Good luck with those reports - as long as everyone behaved in a civil manner (or just stayed completly silent) its unlikely that much will come of them. They've stated in the past that "difference in playstyle" is a valid reason to remove someone from your group and we should all be thankful for that since it allows those who want to take it slow (and have a majroity) to remove someone whos rushing them - and those who want to speed through a dungeon to remove someone whos holding the party back. In both ways it ensures that everyone gets to play with like-minded people, which can only increase the general enjoyment of the game.

2) I'm getting the roulette reward because I'm willing to do any content included in that roulette - that is indeed to the benefit of those who havent done the content yet but you dont always get a new person in your dungeon. Thinking about it: Most of the time you actually dont; specially not when it comes to the expert roulette, your main-source of tomestones.

3) I always understood the new player bonus as a reward for accepting that clearing content with a new person might take a bit longer. I never understood it as a reward for finishing said content for the new person, aka carrying them. Taking 10 more minutes because they're learning and trying is fine by what I hear from most people - taking 10 more minutes because "lol, I'm just here to have fun not to do anything" isnt. The other people in the dungeon are your teammates, fellow players - not "employees" that you pay with your reward and who then have to do as you please. You and your experience arnt more important than them and their experience, so both parties should try to accomodate each other: New players by giving it their best, vets by accepting that this best might not be their best yet. If there is some disagreement over that, refer to my first point.

4) You're in for a good one with the Trust-system - let me give you a warning: Its less forgiving than DF-runs in terms of your own mistakes and runs will take a lot longer. Any person with an attitude of "lol, I just want to have fun, dont care about playing well" will have a pretty hard time with the Trust-system. You cant die, because that means its a wipe. And while Trusts usually follow mechanics, they can mess up too and theres little you can do about that. I tried Trusts once (as dancer) and the healer-NPC died to a mechanic they needed to dodge. I had no influence on that, couldnt do a thing about it and couldnt do anything to fix it. (Luckly the boss was at ~5% so all good - but someone who has been that healer-NPC so far, aka the person dying to avioable mechanics, might be in for a surprise now)
Trust-NPCs also barely use AoEs and you'll notice the runs taking about twice as long as your average DF-group; longer if you die because thats a wipe. You're also alone, obviously, which means that any mechanic you cant figure out you'll have to google (or ask someone in your FC/a LS, I guess). Trusts cant be combinded with playing with other people - you cant go in with 2 people and take 2 NPCs on, you need to go alone.
So those Trusts are great for people who are really insecure about playing with others or for anyone who likes to idle around to take the landscape any. Maybe for DPS because of no queuetimes or for someone who feels its more appropriate to play through those dungeons with the NPCs while following the story.
They're probably not that great for someone whos being playing with the attitude of "I'm new, I dont need to try, I dont need to play well, the others are getting a bonus to get me through this content!" - but I really hope that people with that attitude try the Trust dungeons and realise that up to this point they've mainly been able to breeze through content without any effort or problems because of other people.

5) Content at level 70+ doesnt really get more difficult in terms of mechanics or anything - at least not assuming that you've been learning your class and figuring out how to use your new spells during the course of leveling, as you should have done. Playing the way you did in Sastasha wont work in the level 73 dungeon anymore but its not like theres a huge difficulty-spike or anything like that for everyone who used the leveling process to constantly improve and not only increase the number next to their job-icon but also their personal skill and knowledge with that job.
At level 80 you'll unlock some level 80 dungeons and the expert-roulette - something most people run on a daily basis to get their tomestones. When you reach that point, you're not a new player anymore and if you want to run each dungeon more than the one time its required for the quest (=story) you better come up with a new excuse for slacking because "I'm new" and "I only want to see the story" and "You're getting my newbie bonus to put up with me!" are all out of the window. Those are also dungeons most of us are seeing several times a week and their novelty wears up at somepoint - they're not a place you want to spen 30+ minutes because someone couldnt be bothered to pay attention to their tooltips for the past 80 levels.