If running a parser makes you cynical and depressed, why do it?

[Goji1639]

Optimizing is going into the super fine details... maybe some people like it and that's fine. But what's not fine is not bothering to learn SOME semblance of your dps rotation. I don't want to sit there for an extra 10-15 minutes because someone won't AOE or they're only pressing 1-1-1. In trash pulls its easy to see who is doing what -- you either aoe or you don't. You can see it better on boss fights if someone is pulling their weight or not with the parse. Honestly this is the mindset that stunts people from making improvements. It's not a courtesy for someone to learn what buttons to press. Its an obligation you owe to the other people in the party.

No, it's not an obligation, it's absolutely a courtesy. Again, these are story dungeons scaled specifically so new players who don't know what they're doing can still progress without issue. It's their content; designed for them. Would it go faster if everyone was in HQ gear pulling perfect rotations? Sure... It's not anyone's responsibility to make it as fast as humanly possible for you, though.

There's content specifically designed for your mindset and content specifically designed for casual play. Story dungeons are casual. If they're not AFK and the content is moving along without wipes, which it always does, then there's no issue.

[Alynn]

No, it's not an obligation, it's absolutely a courtesy. Again, these are story dungeons scaled specifically so new players who don't know what they're doing can still progress without issue. It's their content; designed for them. Would it go faster if everyone was in HQ gear pulling perfect rotations? Sure... It's not anyone's responsibility to make it as fast as humanly possible for you, though.

There's content specifically designed for your mindset and content specifically designed for casual play. Story dungeons are casual. If they're not AFK and the content is moving along without wipes, which it always does, then there's no issue.

Actually no. As long as it's put into duty finder the content "belongs" to anyone who queues up. And that includes the 3 other people in the party who's time is being wasted because someone cba to learn. In fact, if it belongs to that one person then they should just go solo it themselves. They can't because it doesn't work like that lol.

I don't care about going as fast as humanly possible. I care that people are pulling their weight. 30+ minutes for a dungeon is not a respectable amount of time lmao. Again, I'm not asking for you to know a perfect rotation. I'm asking people to know some semblance of what they SHOULD be doing. There's some competent sprouts out there because they open their eyes and try to understand their tooltips. Just open your eyes and read 4head game2hard am I right? If you go all the way up to expert roulette and tell me you're not at the very least AOEing or only spamming goring blade/rage of halone with no req or something of that sort, there's something fundamentally wrong.

If it wasn't an obligation do you really think SE themselves, Champion of the Casuals, would release a book that tells people how to play their class????

[Goji1639]

Actually no. As long as it's put into duty finder the content "belongs" to anyone who queues up. And that includes the 3 other people in the party who's time is being wasted because someone cba to learn. In fact, if it belongs to that one person then they should just go solo it themselves. They can't because it doesn't work like that lol.

I don't care about going as fast as humanly possible. I care that people are pulling their weight. 30+ minutes for a dungeon is not a respectable amount of time lmao. Again, I'm not asking for you to know a perfect rotation. I'm asking people to know some semblance of what they SHOULD be doing. There's some competent sprouts out there because they open their eyes and try to understand their tooltips. Just open your eyes and read 4head game2hard am I right? If you go all the way up to expert roulette and tell me you're not at the very least AOEing or only spamming goring blade/rage of halone with no req or something of that sort, there's something fundamentally wrong.

If it wasn't an obligation do you really think SE would release a book that tells people how to play their class????

Roulettes are optional, and story content is in them specifically so new players won't have ridiculously long queue's. You get rewarded for running them, and get rewarded moreso for running them with new players. That's your incentive to deal with the pitfalls of running casual content with new players. If it's not worth it then again, roulettes are optional.

Also, if it were an obligation then you could report people for not knowing basic stuff. The only obligations are to contribute and make progress.

[Alynn]

Roulettes are optional, and story content is in them specifically so new players won't have ridiculously long queue's. You get rewarded for running them, and get rewarded moreso for running them with new players. That's your incentive to deal with the pitfalls of running casual content with new players. If it's not worth it then again, roulettes are optional.

Also, if it were an obligation then you could report people for not knowing basic stuff. The only obligations are to contribute and make progress.

Yeah it's called kicking people for having difference in playstyles. Don't BabyRage at me if I do it because I repeatedly tell you to AOE or to not eat the AOES lmao. I don't go out of my way to correct people most of the time since its really trivial. But if I SEE YOU NOT AOEING or doing some mad chaos, you'd best believe I'm going to gently remind you a few times and if you still refuse you're getting the boot.

How do you contribute and make progress when you don't have a sturdy foundation? Do babies start running before they start walking now or what?

[Goji1639]

Yeah it's called kicking people for having difference in playstyles. Don't BabyRage at me if I do it because I repeatedly tell you to AOE or to not eat the AOES lmao. I don't go out of my way to correct people most of the time since its really trivial. But if I SEE YOU NOT AOEING or doing some mad chaos, you'd best believe I'm going to gently remind you a few times and if you still refuse you're getting the boot.

How do you contribute and make progress when you don't have a sturdy foundation? Do babies start running before they start walking now or what?

You can technically vote kick someone for any reason, but if you're kicking new players for not knowing their class or abilities it likely won't end well for you if the new player decides to report you.

Gentle reminders are fine. Even a vote kick is fine if the group is stalemated because of a player who doesn't know his class and can't figure it out right there. If things are moving along fine, however, there's really no justification. It's just being petty.

[Mavrias]

You can technically vote kick someone for any reason, but if you're kicking new players for not knowing their class or abilities it likely won't end well for you if the new player decides to report you.

Gentle reminders are fine. Even a vote kick is fine if the group is stalemated because of a player who doesn't know his class and can't figure it out right there. If things are moving along fine, however, there's really no justification. It's just being petty.

Sorry, homie, but if i have to tell you to AoE or the basics of your rotation more than once in a level 75 dungeon you're getting the boot. And if youre wearing terrible gear itll be the swiftest, most silent kick in the midwest. "Well, there wasnt a wipe," is an awful justification for being a bad party member.

I have tons of patience for new players. That patience starts wearing mighty thin at level 60 and up.

[Vidu]

No, it's not an obligation, it's absolutely a courtesy. Again, these are story dungeons scaled specifically so new players who don't know what they're doing can still progress without issue. It's their content; designed for them. Would it go faster if everyone was in HQ gear pulling perfect rotations? Sure... It's not anyone's responsibility to make it as fast as humanly possible for you, though.

There's content specifically designed for your mindset and content specifically designed for casual play. Story dungeons are casual. If they're not AFK and the content is moving along without wipes, which it always does, then there's no issue.

And again: No one is talking about making it "as fast as humanly possible". No one is asking that everyone should be pulling purple parsers. At least I'm asking for everyone to pull their weight with in appropriate boundaries. Anything that isnt pressing buttons at random on your keyboard is already "optimization". Following your rotation is "optimization" - you seem to have missed that point.
Yes, I dont need a parser to see that this RDM isnt AoEing when they should, but a parser can definitly make it easier to spot that (instead of having to look at peoples castbars 100% of the time - which is something I can do when playing tank, but if I'm dpsing myself, I'm way more focussed on my own rotation and with a bard as a main-dps on procs etc.)
Not everyone run has to be finished in 10 minutes - but a run also doesnt need to take more than half an hour to complete, considering that the average clear time is something between 15 and 20 minutes.

Also: Content is not always moving along without wipes. Most of the time it is, but since we dont have a permanent "Hallowed"-buff on everyone for the duration of a run wipes do happen. It might even be really easy to pinpoint why a particular wipe happend or even who caused it. And at that point its all about attitude - and that goes for everyone. While no one needs to be harrassed or insulted about causing a wipe, that person also needs to weither take advice on how to handle whatever caused the wipe or, if they cant or dont want to do that, leave the dungeon. Preferably on their own account, but going by some statments here I'm wondering if a silent kick without offering advice first might not even be the better way to go, to not offend anyone...

Sadly, enrages arent really a thing in "casual" content - technically some bossfights have some sort of enrage, thinking about Vishap for example or, as I'm assuming, the last boss of Amarout - which in turn means that dps-jobs can get away with extremly poor play without any real consequences, which leads to this idea that you dont need to care or take this content serious since its trivial anways. I'm not calling for Savage-difficulty, but without enrage the burden of a dungeon-run isnt really distriputived evenly. A dps can die their way through a boss-fight - if the healer dies and you dont happen to have a RDM or SMN around or a tank who can heal through the rest of the fight, its game over.
And its okay that some jobs carry less responsibility than others - but as it currently stands a dps can roll their face over their keyboard and the dungeon will still be cleared if the other 3 people are playing decent and thats somehow okay with you?