A good old boyish cott

[Nonocu]

Healing is boring now but I don't trust other healers enough to do the job.

[Billythepancake]

Healing is boring now but I don't trust other healers enough to do the job.

Has definitely been my experience. I'd still rather deal with a bad healer rather than being stuck with it, but I've noticed almost every healer I've gotten as a GNB has been anywhere between barely passable to downright awful. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Oh well.

[Maeka]

Has definitely been my experience. I'd still rather deal with a bad healer rather than being stuck with it, but I've noticed almost every healer I've gotten as a GNB has been anywhere between barely passable to downright awful. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Oh well.

Assuming you are talking about Duty Finder, as long as people aren't dying, maybe one shouldn't be so picky?

I don't know about anybody else, but personally when I Q up for Duty Finder, and we simply get through the dungeon without people dying, I'm happy with that. What I hate are tanks who overpull and wipe the group when they aren't geared to do such overpulling (or they don't use their mitigation buttons properly), or worse when a tank overpulls and then proceeds to try that very same pull again but with the healer's stuff on cooldown thinking that is somehow going to work, or when healers decide to just let people drop dead because they were too busy spamming their DPS spell, or what-not.

But if we get through a dungeon and the healer and tank ensure there are no wipes, I'm happy. Heck, I'm happy even if we do wipe once or twice, provided such wipe was for a reasonable reason. Accidents can happen, I'm not one of those spoiled brats who drop group at the first wipe. I'm not a quitter like some people I've seen in duty finder who drop group if there's one wipe. Or worse, somebody who drops group if they see newbie bonus in a trial.

I think people are just plain getting spoiled and they want Savage-level performance out of Non-Savage players which make up the vast majority of the playerbase and they gripe, grumble, and groan because your average player just doesn't play at that level. It's why I have really gotten this dislike towards many of the vocal savage players who are quick to look down their nose at the common player. Yeah, sorry I'm not top percentile. But I don't let my groups wipe either, under normal circumstances.

It's attitudes like this that really annoy me, when people say "almost every healer .... has been between barely passable to downright awful". That's complete hyperbole, because I have seen plenty of healers in my duty finder who do just fine and not let the groups wipe. But then I suppose if "downright awful" means being anything less than the top 10% on FFLogs, then.... *shrug* Maybe you should just stick to only doing Roulettes with your FC, that way the rest of us wouldn't have to deal with attitudes like this. Sounds like it'd be a win-win for everybody involved, to be honest.

One can have the biggest Seattle Space Needle nose in the world, but as long as it's in Seattle far away from where I can see it, then I don't care. But if you stick that thing in my backyard, then I care.

And I love it when people talk like "Oh, the GOOD players like US are leaving the game because of crappy players like YOU" .... well, you know what? Go ahead. The rest of us, the majority, will continue to happily play while the vocal minority ragequits. Don't act like you're God's Gift to FFXIV. That makes you look very self-entitled and it's rather unbecoming.

[Saefinn]

And I love it when people talk like "Oh, the GOOD players like US are leaving the game because of crappy players like YOU" .... well, you know what? Go ahead. The rest of us, the majority, will continue to happily play while the vocal minority ragequits. Don't act like you're God's Gift to FFXIV. That makes you look very self-entitled and it's rather unbecoming.

Before assuming what they meant by "barely passable to downright awful" check what they meant by it. Because people's measure of what is "good" and "bad" is variable. To me passable would be, "we struggled a lot, it was a difficult pass, but we got there" and downright awful would be "it's a horrible dungeon run, deaths all over, they struggled a lot, we really had to clench it with some carrying, it was a mess all over the place, the healer didn't listen at all". I've been in a lot of the same threads as Billy and have yet to see something as elitist and mean spirited as you're suggesting, though of course Billy can speak for themselves in this respect.

But most of the people I've been engaging on this forum who are unhappy with the changes have been fine with players who don't play at a savage level and don't care so much if people aren't playing optimally. In most content it doesn't matter. It is only savage & ultimate where it does matter.

Your biggest issue with the compromise I suggested was how it'd affect people what jobs people favour in such content. As long as all jobs are capable of passing content, it's really only the high percentile groups that care about meta who exclude players based on their job choice (or expect them to change). And non-high percentile groups who don't know better.

Nobody here is suggesting we chase out casual players, so I don't see why you're okay with chasing out people who aren't enjoying things the way you are?

And it's not just hardcore players, elitists and savage players who're unhappy. It's not just casuals who're happy (eg: a friend who is one of the server's top Monks for savage seems to be enjoying WHM).

I'm not even a savage player myself, I don't consider myself hardcore, there's plenty of healers who're a lot better than me and nor do I look down on players who struggle. I think it is good they can be accommodated. People play for the social aspect, the story, the roleplay and may enjoy the fights, content and so on.

But I'm still getting 30-60% downtime in my runs of content I do and getting bored of spamming the same thing over and over in that downtime. My co-healer is exactly the same, who's a WHM.

A low skill floor is perfectly acceptable.
But the ceiling doesn't need to be low either (and not boring).

There's multiple ways both can be accommodated. But to accept them as players we need to:

• Set aside our obsession with "optimal" play in content where it doesn't matter
• Accept our comfortable way of playing may not be the optimal way of playing.

[Maeka]

Before assuming what they meant by "barely passable to downright awful" check what they meant by it. Because people's measure of what is "good" and "bad" is variable. To me passable would be, "we struggled a lot, it was a difficult pass, but we got there" and downright awful would be "it's a horrible dungeon run, deaths all over, they struggled a lot, we really had to clench it with some carrying, it was a mess all over the place, the healer didn't listen at all". I've been in a lot of the same threads as Billy and have yet to see something as elitist and mean spirited as you're suggesting, though of course Billy can speak for themselves in this respect.

I get the impression that "bad" in the eyes of someone like the one I quoted is more like "OMG that dungeon run took us 25 minutes! My FC coulda done it in 15!" even if there were no deaths.

I certainly have encountered people grumbling on both forums and occasionally in-game, about "meh" DPS and not being able to pull multiple groups because of a healer not being geared up or something. Or worse, when DPS get impatient and wanna start pulling extra groups even if the tank and healer don't think it's a good idea. Or the tank grabbing extra mobs when he shouldn't, and causes a wipe and everybody proceeds to blame the healer.

But most of the people I've been engaging on this forum who are unhappy with the changes have been fine with players who don't play at a savage level and don't care so much if people aren't playing optimally. In most content it doesn't matter. It is only savage & ultimate where it does matter.

But yet they are suggesting changes that would impact the whole game, negatively for a large number of players that are more casual?

Your biggest issue with the compromise I suggested was how it'd affect people what jobs people favour in such content. As long as all jobs are capable of passing content, it's really only the high percentile groups that care about meta who exclude players based on their job choice (or expect them to change). And non-high percentile groups who don't know better.

My biggest complaint against the proposed compromise was I don't think it would be a good thing when you make one job significantly more difficult or easy over another. Again we'll go back to the Dave thing: What if somebody likes the Aesthetics that Dave brings but doesn't want Dave to be that boring? What if a casual enjoys the aesthetics of AST, but can't hack the complicated playstyle? Should both be locked out of enjoying those jobs?

And it's not just hardcore players, elitists and savage players who're unhappy. It's not just casuals who're happy (eg: a friend who is one of the server's top Monks for savage seems to be enjoying WHM).

I suppose that's a good point, it's just a few vocal minority that are raising their voices the loudest. I wonder what the actual % of players are who are content. 80%? 90%? 70%? Who knows. SE seems to think it's the vast majority who like the content otherwise they'd change it.

A low skill floor is perfectly acceptable.
But the ceiling doesn't need to be low either (and not boring).

If they can devise some way of making things "Interesting" but yet not make said changes "required" or people start dying or we get flak in groups, well.... ok, fine.

If I can still log on the "hardest" job and still clear most Duty Finder content, and not get chewed out of groups or wipes happen because they made the job too complex, then the people who so eagerly want such things can have their extra 2-3 DPS buttons that adds 10% DPS or what-not.

There's multiple ways both can be accommodated. But to accept them as players we need to:

• Set aside our obsession with "optimal" play in content where it doesn't matter
• Accept our comfortable way of playing may not be the optimal way of playing.

Good luck getting people to do the first point...

[Billythepancake]

snip .

Way to take 1 line and apply no context to it, kek. I don't expect optimization from a DF healer, I don't expect anything, tbh. While they're not all bad, the ones I tend to run into can barely handle 1 trash pack, no matter how I try to space CDs. I didn't say EVERY healer, I've specifically said the ones I'VE run into. I'm aware there are plenty of good/decent healers out there, maybe I'm just unlucky, who knows. And my definitions was more towards, how well can they handle the trash mobs, I don't parse normal content, I genuinely don't care what DPS the healer is pulling, what I do see though is a SCH spamming physic, not using his aetherflow that heals more and is instant cast, or a WHM that never uses tetra. I'd like to help and give advice, but if there's one thing this game has taught me, it doesn't matter how nice with my advice I try to be, people don't want to accept criticism, or being told that they could be doing better and I'm in danger of being called an "elitist" for DARING to ever suggest an improvement. You're the one that has it in their head I'm this super duper "YOU MUST DO THIS AND BE THIS GOOD OR YOURE GARBAGE RADA RADA" like, mate, I just want a decent pace when I'm doing dungeons, that's it, lmao, and yes, I expect healers to know the bare basics of their class to help make that happen, how awfully elitist of me.

[Maeka]

Way to take 1 line and apply no context to it, kek. I don't expect optimization from a DF healer, I don't expect anything, tbh. While they're not all bad, the ones I tend to run into can barely handle 1 trash pack, no matter how I try to space CDs. I didn't say EVERY healer, I've specifically said the ones I'VE run into. I'm aware there are plenty of good/decent healers out there, maybe I'm just unlucky, who knows.

I would say you are very unlucky because those certainly haven't been my experiences, and I should know, I'm one who is very guilty at seeing the negatives in things far too often, or at least friends tell me that.

And my definitions was more towards, how well can they handle the trash mobs, I don't parse normal content, I genuinely don't care what DPS the healer is pulling, what I do see though is a SCH spamming physic, not using his aetherflow that heals more and is instant cast, or a WHM that never uses tetra. I'd like to help and give advice, but if there's one thing this game has taught me, it doesn't matter how nice with my advice I try to be, people don't want to accept criticism, or being told that they could be doing better and I'm in danger of being called an "elitist" for DARING to ever suggest an improvement.

It's good that you give advice, though... based upon your reponses I've seen in other threads, perhaps... maybe try smoothing it over a little more? Especially if it's just a random person who didn't ask for advice?

My theory is that a lot of people have been burned by elitists and when a well-meaning one tries to give advice..... hey, I'm not elitist and I've tried to give advice only to get snapped at myself, I know what you mean there, but... well, that's the consequences of elitism really.

You're the one that has it in their head I'm this super duper "YOU MUST DO THIS AND BE THIS GOOD OR YOURE GARBAGE RADA RADA" like, mate, I just want a decent pace when I'm doing dungeons, that's it, lmao, and yes, I expect healers to know the bare basics of their class to help make that happen, how awfully elitist of me.

Well, maybe it's just you weren't communicating that very well or something? I dunno. But I suppose if all you want is to not die and the tank to be able to pull normal pulls... I don't fault you for that, no. It's just you spent half of the thread seemingly going on and on about how everybody should be optimizing and playing awesomely and it kinda... sounds off-putting to those who just want to clear duty finder content reasonably.

Hats off to the savage raiders who squeeze every .1% of DPS out, sure. Just as long as they aren't getting all uppity with me because I come home after work and just wanna do my daily expert because phantasmagoria gear is the best gear I really have access to, and just wanna clear the dungeon, not really caring if it takes us 15, 20, or heck even 30 minutes.

I will admit though, I did grumble (to my FC, not to the group) about a 45 (!!!) minute Temple of Qarn (with almost no deaths other than the first boss...) run a couple weeks ago. That was.... rather terrible, I'll admit. There are reasonable limits. That wasn't the healer's fault though, that was two sprout DPS who were wearing 10 levels out of date non-HQ crafted/vendor bought junk and the healer was in dungeon gear from, IIRC, Toto-Rak or something and wasn't even DPSing at all. I was the tank so there's not much I could have done to speed that up.