How do we feel about tank damage right now?

[Reynhart]

True but everbody that really cared about contributing would turn of tank stance the moment they had enough threat to see them through the encounter

Which would still only mattered compared to other tanks, and completely irrelevant to how well you perform compared to DPS.

or if that wasn't possible just quit playing tanks altogether.

No, because not all tanks are obssessed with being a wannabe-DPS.

Unless you are overgeared for the fight, you would probably wipe to the enrage or fail a dps check that happens while the 2 DPS are dead.

I've cleared E1S several times with multiple DPS deaths and we're far from overgeared.

( I mean there have been kills of 24 man bosses with over a hundered deaths in the kill "try")

Not that hard when fights don't have hard enrage.

I personally want my contribution to be relevant more often than once every minute.

You're still doing damage the rest of the time. Basically, you're half useful 100% of the time, and completely vital once every 30 seconds, to the point where no DPS will ever be able to steal your role.

Coming from a game where any job could tank as long as they have the proper subjob and a competent healer, you're way overdramatizing the situation tanks will ever be in in XIV.

This is why Sentinel was considered the worst 30% tank CD for years. It offered 10% more mitigation, which was useless, for an additional 60s CD length.

Yes, at the cost on 60CD length. The issue with Sentinel is the uptime. That's why Rampart is considered was considered the best CD for years...and the tank stance is a permanent Rampart, without any drawback.

You're missing the point. If Levi does so little damage that you can go the entire fight without using a single CD excluding your Invuls, it makes our mitigation tools have significantly less value.

Except that Levi does so little damage because you have that permanent mitigation that your healer deals with. Having to heal that increased damage has a cost, it always had. The issue in SB and before is that the damage cost on tanks was far greater that the healing on healers. Now, there's no cost on tanks, you're just giving "free" damage to healers.

You're purposely ignoring past versions because it suits your argument.

No, you're ignoring past content to suit your agument. Tank damage has increased. If you try Ultimate now for the first time, you will do more damage than those that cleared it before. The fact that DPS has their damge increased more is still not a nerf. If I have a car slightly faster than you, then decide to buy one that goes three times faster while you buy a one that goes two times faster, you're not going slower than before.
And the contribution is as vital as it was before, especially now that the role is easier to play.

[ForteNightshade]

No, because not all tanks are obssessed with being a wannabe-DPS.

Because DPS is the only thing that matters in this game. Lyth already detailed all the potential ways tanks can be involved and engaging yet we lack any of that nuanced gameplay. Enmity has been a joke for years, bosses re-position themselves and damage is entire scripted; with auto-attacks being little more than fluff. What else are tanks supposed to care about besides damage? That is the one metric we have influence over, thus it's why tanks focus so much on it.

If you want tanks to focus on the defensive aspect of the game. SE needs to fundamentally change how they both approach and design encounters. We all know that isn't going to happen. It's the same problem healers have. They're "wannabe-DPS" because nothing encourages them to actually heal. Don't blame the playerbase for playing within the system SE designed. That fault lies on SE for simplifying everything to the point only damage matters.

[Reynhart]

Because DPS is the only thing that matters in this game.

So, how come we don't have 8-tank parties ? Or, 6-DPS, 2-healers ?

Lyth already detailed all the potential ways tanks can be involved and engaging yet we lack any of that nuanced gameplay.

That's a completely different discussion. Even when tank did fairly high damage compared to DPS, the lack of real "tanking" challenge was an issue in my opinion.

Enmity has been a joke for years, bosses re-position themselves and damage is entire scripted; with auto-attacks being little more than fluff.

Sure, and, on top of that, tank rotation has been streamline to the bare minimum. So, why should tank be rewarded as much as before (or even more) if every aspect of their implication has been reduced to the bare minimum ?
I'm pretty sure "turtle" tanks did comparatively the same damage as all tanks do now. And their additionnal effort was how to optimize mitigation to do that extra damage and damage was their reward. This is gone, because this forum claimed for years that you should never have your damage penalty on.

What else are tanks supposed to care about besides damage? That is the one metric we have influence over, thus it's why tanks focus so much on it.

Yes, one field where you can improve yourself, by knowing fights and rotation...which has still nothing to do with with how much damage DPS do.

It's the same problem healers have. They're "wannabe-DPS" because nothing encourages them to actually heal.

No, it's not. If a healer refuses to DPS and only focus on Healing, he'll have time when he literally has nothing to do. There's a reson why the idiom "Always Be Casting" is that well known. Tanks don't do nothing when they don't hit one of their mitigation skill.

But yes, I (And I'm obviously not the only one to) think that encounter design is an issue. But, most of the time a suggestion is made to make the content more "tank challenging", people brush it off saying it couldn't be done because it would make "engame content not new-player-friendly"...And I'll let you sit on the sheer absurdity of that sentence

[ForteNightshade]

Except that Levi does so little damge because you have that permanent mitigation that your healer deals with. Having to heal that increased damge has a cost, it always had. The issue in SB and before is that the damage cost on tanks was far greater that the healing on healers. Now, there's no cost on tanks, you're just giving "free" damage to healers.

That cost is minimal. Levi's autos hit for roughly 10k when tanks have almost 150,000. In a lot of cases, Regens actually overheal because we're simply not taking enough damage. The "free" mitigation made our actual CDs have less value. Like I said, mitigation has a threshold. Adding more on top of what is necessary serves no purpose—which has been the result of this tier. Our defenses went up, the bosses are weaker and the healer received even more tools to trivializing damn near everything. Levi does nothing because he isn't scaled to handle that passive mitigation. In other words, he's just undertuned.

No, you're ignoring past content to suit your agument. Tank damage has increased. If you try Ultimate now for the first time, you will do more damage than those that cleared it before. The fact that DPS has their damge increased more is still not a nerf. And the contribution is as vital as it was before, especially now that the role is easier to play.

Everyone's damaged increased. Just because the numbers went from 5,500 to 8,500 doesn't make the scaling equivalent. A larger disparity between the tanks and DPS means the scaling of tanks was reduced, thus a nerf.

As for Ultimate. The highest recorded Warrior upload in 5.0 is 4,200; the average being 3,924. In Stormblood, those numbers are 4,500 and 4,365, respectively. And this despite us now having better substat scaling since we can sync i420+ pieces. Tanks are not doing more damage... the DPS are.

[Reynhart]

And this despite us now having better substat scaling since we can sync i420+ pieces. Tanks are not doing more damage... the DPS are.

From what I know, we have worse substat scaling for Critical, which explain why WAR was hit more than other tanks in its damage ranking. You have the same comparison for PLDs and DRKs ?

[ForteNightshade]

So, how come we don't have 8-tank parties ? Or, 6-DPS, 2-healers ?

You're strawmanning.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with why tanks focus almost exclusively on damage. Maybe 10% of our job involves actual tank things. Unless you consider popping Vengeance in between spamming a billion Fell Cleave as big time tank mechanics.

That's a completely different discussion. Even when tank did fairly high damage compared to DPS, the lack of real "tanking" challenge was an issue in my opinion.

The discussion bleeds when tanks are continuously simplified. Currently, we're still the blue DPS we have always been. We're just arbitrarily scaled lower than in previous expansions because reasons. Now if that trade off came with increased tank responsibility. It wouldn't be an issue. Instead, we have less.

Sure, and, on top of that, tank rotation has been streamline to the bare minimum. So, why should tank be rewarded as much as before (or even more) if every aspect of their implication has been reduced to the bare minimum ?
I'm pretty sure "turtle" tanks did comparatively the same damage as all tanks do now. And their additionnal effort was how to optimize mitigation to do that extra damage and damage was their reward. This is gone, because this forum claimed for years that you should never have your damage penalty on.

Why should healers? They have a single button yet a White Mage can surpass all but Gunbreaker. If we're going to base damage on button presses, then healers should be doing a fraction of the damage given their DPS input is, once again, a single button and a DoT. It's a silly argument.

Yes, one field where you can improve yourself, by knowing fights and rotation...which has still nothing to do with with how much damage DPS do.

And people are naturally a bit miffed when their reward has been reduced from previous iterations for arbitrary reasons.

No, it's not. If a healer refuses to DPS and only focus on Healing, he'll have time when he literally has nothing to do. There's a reson why the idiom "Always Be Casting" is that well known. Tanks don't do nothing when they don't hit one of their mitigation skill.

But yes, I (And I'm obviously not the only one to) think that encounter design is an issue. But, most of the time a suggestion is made to make the content more "tank challenging", people brush it off saying it couldn't be done because it would make "engame content not new-player-friendly"...And I'll let you sit on the sheer absurdity of that sentence

Once again, you're missing the point. You accused tanks of wanting to be blue DPS because they only focus on damage. Healers do the same. Both roles do so because the game offers them nothing else to focus on. You can't make a blanket statement that all tanks only want more DPS and not actual tank mechanics. These threads alone show plenty of tanks, myself included, would love for more responsibility. A lot of us also know the likelihood is very slim, especially given Shadowbringers' stance of making everything easier. Therefore, some of us shoot for things we might actually get.

From what I know, we have worse substat scaling for Critical Hit and Direct Hit, which explain why WAR was hit more than other tanks in its damage ranking. You have the same comparison for PLDs and DRKs ?

Content prior to 5.0 saw no scaling changes, though I was more referring to how synced gear now gives us full value if you have i420 or above. The exceptions being Head, Gloves and Feet.

All the statistics are from FFlogs. Paladin and Dark Knight have roughly a 200-300 gap on both the highest uploaded parse and their general average. Even when comparing aDPS, the averages remain highest in Stormblood than Shadowbringers. Dark Knight is the closest, which I suspect is due to them getting a bigger overhaul to their 70 kit.

[Quor]

Because DPS is the only thing that matters in this game. Lyth already detailed all the potential ways tanks can be involved and engaging yet we lack any of that nuanced gameplay.

Then advocate for that. Don't just throw your hands up and go "well I guess we're tanky dps now guys" and call it a day.

SE is building the new xpac RIGHT. NOW. Give them the feedback that you want to see more involved tank encounters that emphasize the tanky side of tanks instead of the damage side. Doing it 6 months prior to release won't change a damn thing because so much will already be set in stone. Right here, right now, is the time to make change happen.

[Reynhart]

You're strawmanning.

In a topic that's literally "Boo I feel left out and useless in my tank job because I don't do enough damage compared to real DPS jobs"...You're kidding, right ?

[Rhais]

And the only metrics that matter for a tanks damage comparison is to other tanks.

This is complete BS. There may be some people that don't mind having little impact in party dps when tanking, but a lot of people do. It doesn't matter if you don't agree or think tanks shouldn't be looking at it, drop the percentage of tanks party dps down too much and a lot of people are going to leave the role, even if they are perfectly balanced down to the last digit within the role.

[BarretOblivion]

Which would still only mattered compared to other tanks, and completely irrelevant to how well you perform compared to DPS.

No, because not all tanks are obssessed with being a wannabe-DPS.

And these tanks are usually absolute garbage. Sorry but you not caring about your DPS even as a tank is a bad thing in end game. You should be doing as much damage as possible and thinking how you can improve that damage. All you do then is shove your responsibliity off to the party. Most decent groups that see you do this will drop you immediately when they get wind of it. Its a bad mindset that hurts groups.