How do we feel about tank damage right now?

[Awha]

Exactly this. The past 20 pages of this thread, no one has offered any suggestion to increase tank "complexity" or "engagement." It's just been whining for more damage and "heals shouldn't out dps tanks" and a bunch of defeatist resignation about fight design.

Time to put up or shut up. Start offering suggestions that are meaningful. Open yourself up to criticism. Try to fix the actual problem instead of throwing a band-aid arbitrary amount of dps at tanks and calling it a day. If you can't do that, then shut up and accept that you're simply whining because you want a bigger bar on the graph.

The problem is changes required to make tanking more complex and engaging would not happen this expansion, so while I agree discussion around that topic will be helpful it does nothing for how tanks feel right now, and if adding an extra 1k damage even if it is pseudo feeling and effect would at the very least show SE is trying to make an effort to make it so tanks feels listened to and engaged.

While not the best metric I understand, for the longest time contribution to the group at least from my experience has always been measured by ones DPS while being able to perform their respected role. Now I get it is just a number and as a tank I should not be bothered that a healer breaths down my neck having to press fewer buttons, but the perception remains and it is not a great feeling personally, and do think many tanks feel this way also.

[Nedkel]

"Tanks need 1000 dps"

"Here's a change that gives tanks in raids an average of 1800-2400 DPS scaling as the game goes on."

"lolwtfisthistrash meme, lol, get this out."

From the changes proposed, DRK dps will not change at all, 6% haste is not going to translate into 5% damage, because: oGCD damage is there and not affected by it, you will need 100% active time which is not even possible for 99% DRK. Warrior will have another unnecessary combo next to the Storms eye, PLD would have 2k rDPS higher than any other tank and be less fun to play, giving GNB another cartridge skill with 30 seconds debuff its even worse than WAR storms eye...
On top of that all theses change will be useless against multitarget, and we are yet again balancing the game basing on single target instead of looking at the whole.
2-3% dmg change for a exchange of a fluff skills that would be painful to squeeze in the rotation.

Don't you know that anything that's lower than 500 pot is just unnecessary fluff? Also 500 is bigger than 4x140, because not missing casts is too hard.
Which is why nobody cared about 3% Foe's and 2% crit songs and BRD was unwanted in SB... oh wait.

Do you want to tell me that you actually like an idea to give a warrior second "storms eye" combo to use before he starts IR, and not only that but also to give PLD the same treatment, but what PLD is guilty for to punish him with such of an unnecessary bloat?! GNB will not be better, DRK will just consfuse everyone who is not into parsing.
Not all ideas that are "solving something" (and brining new problems to the table) are good ideas, especially if they are directly affecting the fun out from the job.
Instead we could increase scaling and give warrior some nice and hard hitting skill to line up with IR, it will be better.

[Quor]

So much of unnecessary fluff.
Giving combos with buffs is not the answer to anything, people hate them especially one digit % buffs. Human perception regocnizes change starting at 10%, anything below is something that you wont notice.
Tank mains would start a revolution after all those changes, not only you are tying their gameplay to trash buffs, but also making fun of them, here waste 10 seconds in order to apply 2% dmg buff, really. xD
Reddit would blow up with memes.

Average TA gain over the course of 60s is ~1.66% damage (using current TA values). My idea gives tanks a better TA (2% instead of 1.66%) for nothing more than - at most - 3 GCD's of input. On top of that, there are other mechanics to manage beyond simply boosted damage that provide greater engagement for each tank. And yet, you still complain. Of course, looking at your next post, it's clear you don't want more complexity (what you describe as "bloat") and instead simply want buffed damage.

From the changes proposed, DRK dps will not change at all, 6% haste is not going to translate into 5% damage, because: oGCD damage is there and not affected by it, you will need 100% active time which is not even possible for 99% DRK.

Which is why it's a 60s debuff instead of 30s, and also gives MP. PS on it's own just provides a haste buff, but with the debuff added from the Dark Arts effect, DRK is gaining a good chunk of MP in a raid situation. The values could be adjusted up or down as needed of course. Maybe the MP regained needs to be doubled or something, but the idea is that the MP accounts for the lack of effect on oGCD damage by increasing the number of oGCD's available (specifically Edge).

Warrior will have another unnecessary combo next to the Storms eye, PLD would have 2k rDPS higher than any other tank and be less fun to play, giving GNB another cartridge skill with 30 seconds debuff its even worse than WAR storms eye...

PLD is already fine as it is, with two distinct damage periods that create a nice flow among themselves. RoH will fit nicely into the dead time between each period. Yes, it's "just movement on the keyboard" if a person wants to be facetious about it, but it's also another timer the PLD needs to watch and maintain for proper optimization. As it stands, many people in this thread, yourself included, seem to be advocating for a "one button wonder" approach that turns this game into the bastard child of MMO's and Cow Clicker. Adding an extra timer to watch and optimize around, one with a tangible reward (which can be adjusted up if needed) adds challenge and complexity to the game. Both of which people in this thread (who also advocate for increased tank damage) say that they want. Well, there's your complexity. I dare you to come up with something better.

On top of that all theses change will be useless against multitarget, and we are yet again balancing the game basing on single target instead of looking at the whole.
2-3% dmg change for a exchange of a fluff skills that would be pain in the a55 to squeeze in the rotation, no thanks rotlf.

Absolutely no one gives a damn about aoe situations. The entire premise of this thread has been focused around raid dps, which is overwhelmingly single target. Stop introducing unrelated topics into the discussion.

Of course and this is reason why we should make jobs play like po po, to buff them for 2% dps wise, cool. xD
You are defending an idea to give a warrior second "storms eye" combo to use before he starts IR, and not only that but also to give PLD the same treatment, seriously what PLD is guilty for to punish him with such of an unnecessary bloat?! GNB will not be better, DRK will just consfuse everyone who is not into parsing.
Not all ideas that are "solving something" (and brining new problems to the table) are good ideas.

Better than the tripe you constantly vomit up. I'm offering constructive suggestions; you're laughing at an rDPS increase that's greater than TA and calling it "useless." Also, this entire thread wouldn't exist if it weren't for ACT and FFlogs, so any take your "consfuse" and shove it.

"Tanks need 1000 dps"

"Here's a change that gives tanks in raids an average of 1800-2400 DPS scaling as the game goes on."

"lolwtfisthistrash meme, lol, get this out."

Well put and hilarious.

[Quor]

The problem is changes required to make tanking more complex and engaging would not happen this expansion, so while I agree discussion around that topic will be helpful it does nothing for how tanks feel right now, and if adding an extra 1k damage even if it is pseudo feeling and effect would at the very least show SE is trying to make an effort to make it so tanks feels listened to and engaged.

True, changes likely won't happen until 6.0. Doesn't mean we shouldn't bang on about them right now. The dev team is currently working on 6.0 as we speak; if we generate buzz about the state of tanks right now and how the tank playerbase wants the role to change, then we get in on the ground floor of things so to speak. If we begin talking about tank changes in the months leading up to 6.0 it's already going to be too late. Now is exactly the time to make your voice heard about how you want tank engagement/complexity to be increased, and in what ways it could be increased.

While not the best metric I understand, for the longest time contribution to the group at least from my experience has always been measured by ones DPS while being able to perform their respected role. Now I get it is just a number and as a tank I should not be bothered that a healer breaths down my neck having to press fewer buttons, but the perception remains and it is not a great feeling personally, and do think many tanks feel this way also.

Again, I mentioned this earlier, but there is this baseline assumption that all tanks and healers will perform their primary role flawlessly, so therefore the only differentiation is in the form of dps. This is a false premise, as a tank who does not mitigate or position correctly, or a healer who does not heal, WILL. WIPE. RAIDS. All dps measurements are done on the given basis that tanking mechanics and healing mechanics will be performed flawlessly. This is a terrible assumption to make, as it completely undersells the importance of actually doing tank/heal stuff in a raid. The complexity of healer dps doesn't come down to how many damage skills they have; it comes down to how many GCD's they can free up from doing actual healing that they then dedicate to dps. It's a complexity not unlike what you find playing a BLM, where an encyclopedic knowledge of the fight is necessary, so as to know exactly what can be GCD'd and when so that there are as few actual healing GCD's as is necessary, with all other healing filled in by oGCD's where possible.

The same idea applies to tanks as well. All tank dps is predicated upon actually doing the tank mechanics correctly. Again, an argument can be made for the lack of (or ease of dealing with) tank mechanics in this current raid tier. For that, I say two things; first, we are only in the first raid tier, which SE has stated they wanted to be easier for people to get into than previous first raid tiers. This implies the second and third tiers will be more complex relative to the first. Secondly, and going back to my previous point above, now is the time to talk about the ease of tank mechanics and let SE know that tanks want more complexity, both within the jobs themselves and during the fights. The answer is NOT to shrug and go "gib dps plz" and call it a day.

[Satarn]

Do you want to tell me that you actually like an idea to give a warrior second "storms eye" combo to use before he starts IR, and not only that but also to give PLD the same treatment, but what PLD is guilty for to punish him with such of an unnecessary bloat?! GNB will not be better, DRK will just consfuse everyone who is not into parsing.
Not all ideas that are "solving something" (and brining new problems to the table) are good ideas, especially if they are directly affecting the fun out from the job.
Instead we could increase scaling and give warrior some nice and hard hitting skill to line up with IR, it will be better.

Nah, I never said those were great propositions or whatever, in fact I haven't even properly read all of them.

I'm merely poking fun at how unconstructive and out of touch your rebuttals always are, lol. You mock other person's ideas trying to sound like you know better, but you just show how little you understand of how numbers work. Again.

Full uptime 2% vuln that works for entire raid would be pretty damn significant and most people don't care that your perception "recognizes change starting at 10% and that anything below is something that you wont notice".

[Awha]

Snip . . .

I am no logic expert, isn't it already a valid premise that if someone does not perform their base role well enough they run the risk of wiping the group. This is a given notion that pretty much every person can agree upon so shouldn't it simply be considered an already established unspoken premise. It is not at the heart as to what we are talking about, giving tanks extra damage and having discussion based around future changes can exist in the same bubble, though giving tanks more damage would form as a means to maybe ease the current woes some tanks have and maybe help foster further discussion regarding future changes. Since as it stands for some it might be hard to worry about the future of changes regarding engagement and complexity when they are more so concerned with the current perception of tanks.

In the end I get where you are coming from, and a lot of stems that as the raid tier goes on SE will design encounters to tax healers and tanks more thus creating a natural gap between the degrees of skill. That is a fair point, but I personally do not have faith in SE doing that, and would rather have a band aid fix in the moment so at the very least my base enjoyment / perception of the role can be improved. I get many people have faith in SE statements, but I honestly have no faith in what they say and rather see action, and an adjustment to damage while yes fluff and simply a band aid at the very least show they are listening and taking to heart feedback.

Me I do not want more dps and call it a day, I would love to see tank made more complex and engaging, and I will leave that to more experienced and knowledgeable players.

[Lyth]

Players want tank damage to be relevant. That's reasonable.

It's one of several things that are required to make tank gameplay feel engaging. Fight design with interesting positioning mechanics and mitigation challenges are a big part of this as well. We don't need less ways for tanks to contribute. We need more.

[Kabooa]

Players want tank damage to be relevant. That's reasonable.

It's one of several things that are required to make tank gameplay feel engaging. Fight design with interesting positioning mechanics and mitigation challenges are a big part of this as well. We don't need less ways for tanks to contribute. We need more.

It is relevant. Almost identical to before, the metric measuring it just changed.

[Lyth]

It's a lot less relevant when compared to a pure damage dealing job, which is fair. It has been progressively been becoming less relevant, from expansion to expansion. The metric changes are just there to conceal the fact. It would have happened to a much bigger extent last expansion had they not screwed up tank accessories so obviously.

The side effect of this it has unmasked some deeper problems with the role. Tanking in this game is very, very shallow. And if you de-emphasize the damage dealing element of tanks by letting them contribute proportionally less, it becomes much more obvious that the devs don't know how to design fights from a tanking perspective.

[Shurrikhan]

...All of these 2% damage increase debuffs would stack with one another, but never more than two separate instances at a time. This means you could run any combination of two tanks, but only up to two tanks and reap the full benefit from the debuffs. Three tanks (or more in the case of big stuff like hunts or FATE's) would still get the personal benefit from their debuffs, but the damage increase would be capped at 4% regardless of how many debuffs were placed on the mob.

Okay, but... how does this make tanking, or dealing damage as a tank, less shallow by any noticeable margin? 2 extra buttons per tank just to offer 2% more damage in the form of another one-size-fits-all homogeneous off-combo that will likely end up feeling more like a maintenance grind than anything fitting the individual tank job? That seems... gimmicky at best. And why make that damage benefit unable to switch targets except once per 30 seconds?

All in all, it just seems an unnecessarily bloated and inefficient direction to go in for additional depth.

Now, maybe that's all we're ever going to be allowed, since in all likelihood each further expansion will cut another third of whatever differentiates our tanks outside of flavor text and animations, in which case... I guess it's as good as anything else, because tanking is a hallow mockery of its potential anyways??? But, short of that, couldn't we at least start by focusing on the just obviously lackluster skills of each kit and work from those towards trying to deepen active mitigation across the board and offering a bit more depth in damage-dealing via core systems to the tanks that suffer most from their lobotomies?

DRK and WAR actually probably have some of the better unique mitigation interactions, but their damage dealing could really use a little more to concern oneself with in short-term play. DRK has decent nuance when banking around raid buffs but very few macrorotational checks of its own (and each of those passable through very basic habits), while WAR's gauge has ignored virtually any and all of its potential for complexity. That's not to say there isn't plenty to improve upon in the other kits, but we can't stick to the false narrative of "Any meaningful difference whatsoever in how tanks perform the same task will lead to rampant balancing issues." We should expect more from the devs than that false ultimatum / excuse.