How do we feel about tank damage right now?

[WhyAmIHere]

Hey guys, the new ultimate was cleared. Wonder how tanks fare in the game's most difficult content.

https://twitter.com/FFsfia/status/11...998080/photo/1

Oh look, nothing changes. All those damage skills just to do healer levels of damage LOL.

Not really all that fair a sentiment, since 1) these guys are "up there" in terms of player skill in the playerbase, so they all should be expected to be pushing higher DPS than the average player, and 2) on average a tank still does more damage than healers.

Besides, only the WHM was pushing tank levels of damage, which has been a consistent complaint since ShB launched.

[Risvertasashi]

Not really all that fair a sentiment, since 1) these guys are "up there" in terms of player skill in the playerbase, so they all should be expected to be pushing higher DPS than the average player, and 2) on average a tank still does more damage than healers.

Besides, only the WHM was pushing tank levels of damage, which has been a consistent complaint since ShB launched.

Oh it gets even better than that.



A "grey" tank does more damage than a 50% percentile average healer. A lot more. Tanks have the lowest skill variation of any classes.

It is only the best of the best that compete with tank damage. Outside of Astrologian, even at the 99th percentile - the top 1% of the game - tanks outperform healers for damage. You have to look at less than 1% of the population to find those "OMG healer outdamaging the tanks!" logs. At the 90th percentile, tanks simply outdamage all healers.

If anything, tank damage seems a bit high for the low amount of skill the jobs ask for. But rather than nerf tanks, perhaps SE should increase the effort required.

[J-Reyno]

Not really all that fair a sentiment, since 1) these guys are "up there" in terms of player skill in the playerbase, so they all should be expected to be pushing higher DPS than the average player, and 2) on average a tank still does more damage than healers.

Besides, only the WHM was pushing tank levels of damage, which has been a consistent complaint since ShB launched.

It's very fair, especially if you're a person who plays with a healer who is capable of consistently capable of reaching very high numbers. Maybe you don't, but that doesn't invalidate the experience of others or change the fact that healers and tanks shouldn't be equal in terms of damage at any level of play, much less in a game like FFXIV where the healer role has active healing duty while tanks pretty much only deal damage.

And you're right that only WHM has tank levels of personal damage, but all of the healers are bringing as much or more raid damage than tanks. AST outstrips every single tank for rDPS while pumping out heals with all of its varied heal skills at the same time.

A "grey" tank does more damage than a 50% percentile average healer.

Let's all take a moment to remember that healers don't even NEED to deal damage, and many do not. Please be aware that there are many healers who will simply opt to not deal damage at every opportunity because... and stay with me here... they don't have to. Remember this when reviewing stats.

If a healer chooses to deal damage whenever they have the opportunity, they get BIG returns. Tanks will always be dealing damage, because that's what tanks do. The gameplay of tanking is dealing damage, so of course they're going to do considerably more than off-brand healers who just poke at things whenever they feel like it.

[Risvertasashi]

Let's all take a moment to remember that healers don't even NEED to deal damage, and many do not. Please be aware that there are many healers who will simply opt to not deal damage at every opportunity because... and stay with me here... they don't have to. Remember this when reviewing stats.

In savage content, which the graphs are for, this playstyle is not accepted. A healer that refuses to DPS will quickly find themselves kicked from groups, even pug groups.

Also, even were the above not the case, this argument falls down once you get into the high percentiles. Healers in this range are clearly trying to optimize their DPS. But it is a lot harder than "start pushing your DPS nuke and you do as much damage as a tank".

[WhyAmIHere]

It's very fair, especially if you're a person who plays with a healer who is capable of consistently capable of reaching very high numbers. Maybe you don't, but that doesn't invalidate the experience of others or change the fact that healers and tanks shouldn't be equal in terms of damage at any level of play, much less in a game like FFXIV where the healer role has active healing duty while tanks pretty much only deal damage.

I don't know if you run savage, and in that if you do I don't know if you have a static or not. So allow me to give you what experience I have.
On my primal character, I ran with a SCH who consistently in Sigma/Alpha parsed purples, and occasionally orange. He's playing BLM now, but still. I've also done pugging on that character and met plenty of healers with varying skill levels. On crystal, I purely pug savage. I've seen more lackadaisical and lazy healers there than primal, and just as bad tanks and DPS. But where your argument falls apart is "at any level of play." A grey Tank and a grey healer's DPS will be vastly different, and comparing skill levels thusly is the only fair way of judging a jobs, and further any players, potential. Whenever I, on a tank, pugging eden savage on my crystal character, am doing more damage as gnb, than a DPS, does that mean that it's fair to compare me with that DPS considering the difference in skill level?
Apply that to the healer -v- tank damage issue and see how it's the same argument. Like I'm with you, in classic RPG tropes healers should not be doing as much as, near to, or more than the damage output of any non-healer can do. But, XIV doesn't work like a classic RPG in that regard, and holding it into that narrow mindset is inaccurate to how this game's fight encounters function.

And you're right that only WHM has tank levels of personal damage, but all of the healers are bringing as much or more raid damage than tanks. AST outstrips every single tank for rDPS while pumping out heals with all of its varied heal skills at the same time.

WHM, at top tiers, have the potential to not only meet, but exceed similarly skilled tanks. OFC an orange WHM will do more damage than a green tank, that should go without saiyng. But congrats, you understand how healers can do more than just heal and do damage? I mean that's what AST is supposed to do? Bring more rDPS than WHM? duh??

Let's all take a moment to remember that healers don't even NEED to deal damage, and many do not. Please be aware that there are many healers who will simply opt to not deal damage at every opportunity because... and stay with me here... they don't have to. Remember this when reviewing stats.

Aaaaand you don't raid savage. So, I'll be blunt: in savage any, and I do literally mean ANY healer, that does 0 damage and isn't memeing on that group... and stay with me here... is actively preventing the group from clearing and wasting 7 other people's time.
To be fair. In Extreme trials, bar some exceptions, yes A single healer COULD get away with doing nothing but healing... but what else are they doing when there's no damage going out? Wow such an engaging experience, standing around and waiting for something to do.

"Remember this when reviewing stats."
No. Reviewing stats is more than just "are they doing damage?", but it's certainly a good sign of other problems. Like, when your see the healer is spamming heals and you're still dying to the boss? That's a good time to see they're doing something wrong. Sorry if I hurt your feelings, mister WHM in dusk vigil with naught a single piece of gear above level 30, but you're not going to get through the dungeon in this state. (Anecdotal case, but yes this happened to me, and that healer left of their own accord when told that they needed, NEEDED, to get better gear.) So, ... and stay with me here... remember what content you're in when you start to judge the performance of others, and what level of performance is expected of them.

If a healer chooses to deal damage whenever they have the opportunity, they get BIG returns. Tanks will always be dealing damage, because that's what tanks do. The gameplay of tanking is dealing damage, so of course they're going to do considerably more than off-brand healers who just poke at things whenever they feel like it.

Careful, your bias is showing. (As has been mine.)
So obviously you acknowledge healers have opportunities to do damage. So, what's to say that, a healer that is skilled in the game, will be able to utilize their toolkit more adeptly than a novice, to maximize those opportunities and get as many opportunities as possible? Healers have plenty of skills available to them to heal that are oGCDs, which are plenty powerful on their own. But "off-brand healers" are the healers I'd rather take than your ideal healer; one who just stands there and pumps your HP bar to full if it so much as hits 75%. Tanks deal damage because they have to to establish aggro. Otherwise, guarantee we'd see tanks here and elsewhere complaining "why do I have to do damage? cant I just use abilities that hold hate on my enemies?"

Boo hoo. You don't like it that top tier healers are doing damage rivaling equally skilled top tier tanks. If you're not in the same league as those players, judge yourself against your peers, and compare skill levels therein. Don't delude yourself to think you can do the kinds of damage a 95th tank can do unless you yourself are a 95th capable tank. Boo hoo, you don't like healers doing damage? What else would you expect them to do when not healing, emote you to make you feel good about yourself? emote the DPS? be talking in whatever chat channel they're in and not paying attention to what's going on??? Healers doing damage and healing when needed are paying attention to what's going on, which I'd take any day over a lazy healer wanting to be carried through whatever, expecting that "just healing cuz i'm a healer" is going to cut it. Dungeons are one thing, and in that context/content where it's applicable I can tolerate a pure healer. But, personally, from EX trials and on if I see a pure healer I see some lazy sack wasting mine and everyone elses time.

[Kabooa]

Hey guys, the new ultimate was cleared. Wonder how tanks fare in the game's most difficult content.

https://twitter.com/FFsfia/status/11...998080/photo/1

Oh look, nothing changes. All those damage skills just to do healer levels of damage LOL.

Combined Tank damage is higher than combined healer damage by a significant margin in this screenshot.

You should be happy.

[BarretOblivion]

Combined Tank damage is higher than combined healer damage by a significant margin in this screenshot.

You should be happy.

That was because the SCH was behind while the WHM was ridding the tanks arses. Meanwhile hey look, the top tank is almost 6k behind the lowest DPS...
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Why did the conversation shift to healers shouldn't be dealing damage? The argument was using helaers as a measuring stick to say "hey look! Tanks have fallen so far that healers are riding our arses in DPS"

[Shurrikhan]

That was because the SCH was behind while the WHM was ridding the tanks arses.

Yes. And?

So the non-DPS job nearing 100% offensive uptime is nearing another non-DPS job with 100% offensive uptime (on top of massive passive mitigation)? Who'd have thunk it?

[BarretOblivion]

Yes. And?

So the non-DPS job nearing 100% offensive uptime is nearing another non-DPS job with 100% offensive uptime (on top of massive passive mitigation)? Who'd have thunk it?

Jesus... whoooosh you miss the bloody point right over your head.
The fact that another healer who also isn't likely doing 100% uptime is doing almost as much as another entire role that has 100% uptime doesn't show how laughably behind tanks are? We are using the darn healers as a stick to say "hey Tanks have falled too far behind the lowest DPS already because even healers are riding our butts on damage!"
What part of that arguement says "hey healers are doing too much???"

[Kabooa]

That was because the SCH was behind while the WHM was ridding the tanks arses. Meanwhile hey look, the top tank is almost 6k behind the lowest DPS...
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Why did the conversation shift to healers shouldn't be dealing damage? The argument was using helaers as a measuring stick to say "hey look! Tanks have fallen so far that healers are riding our arses in DPS"

Because the OP constantly says healers shouldn't be dealing as much damage as tanks, despite completely ignoring how much harder they have to work for it.

And while we normally say effort and damage shouldn't be related beyond direct comparison within the job and role, the other argument is "We have X damage skills and they only have two", trying to say rotational difficulty should be what determines how much damage a job or role does.

So if difficulty should determine how much damage they should do, well, healers should win out in spades when compared to tanks. Sorry.