Optimal Materia for Paladin?

[ArianeEwah]

You need a certain about of skill speed to get the first riot blade under FoF which is 2.38 gcd which is a gain. On gear it's crit>det>sks>tentacity on molds it's direct hit all the round unless you are playing all tanks it's crit then det

If you need 2.38s GCD for FoF Riot Blade, you must've the worst connection I have ever heard of. There is a theoretical BiS with a GCD of 2.45s that does work with FoF Riot Blade, but only under the conditions that A) connection is perferct (no lags, low ping) B) 100% uptime on target (even a fraction of a clip will cause this BiS to fail). More common, and useful in practice BiS' have a GCD of 2.43s-2.4s. 2.38s is way too fast. You are not 'Sonic the PLD', get that SkS off your gear!

Unfortunately, the guide I posted above doesn't include any BiS yet. There are several on balance discord tho.

[Rabin]

I'm Pro-Tenacity for all progression content. If you're not doing Savage with a Static, I believe in using use the Tank stat they gave to us. When a piece won't take Tenacity, I pop in DET for the extra self-healing. You never know when you'll need some good heals with pick-up groups.

Tenacity gives you get slightly less damage output, slightly less self healing, but an extra few percent of damage mitigation that the other materia don't provide. I'm very much there to a) Keep aggro and b) be able to take a hit.

Remember, the "BiS-or-Bust" guys are all doing Savage, or pretending that they're doing Savage - I'm not in that group at all.

Filthy Casual™ and proud of it, maaaan.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

If you need 2.38s GCD for FoF Riot Blade, you must've the worst connection I have ever heard of. There is a theoretical BiS with a GCD of 2.45s that does work with FoF Riot Blade, but only under the conditions that A) connection is perferct (no lags, low ping) B) 100% uptime on target (even a fraction of a clip will cause this BiS to fail). More common, and useful in practice BiS' have a GCD of 2.43s-2.4s. 2.38s is way too fast. You are not 'Sonic the PLD', get that SkS off your gear!

Unfortunately, the guide I posted above doesn't include any BiS yet. There are several on balance discord tho.

I can confirm 2.43-2.45s myself since I have been forced to run with low SkS for a while now.

[Seabhacgra]

Love this thread, thanks for making it! all the guides I've watched on Youtube and online have lead me to believe Crit is always king, even on a Pally, which I play. I have all 450+ gear with several 460 and several pieces overmelded. I'm sitting about 2680 Crit, 1890 Det and 1200 DH... I;m a bit of a min maxer so I like to optimize as much as possible.. so you're all saying I should be focusing on DH instead of Crit??

[TheForce]

I do agree with you that it is a weak argument. That's why I'm firmly in the Pro-DPS camp.

Hmmm, you're entitled to your opinion, but I think your view is kind of strange. If I'm understanding you correctly, you believe that melding Tenacity is (compared to melding like a DPS) is the worse choice because of how negligible its effects are, and how you wouldn't see a big difference from it.

In the words of Yoshi P himself,
Tenacity is an omnipotent stat, it affects too many different traits for it to make a large impact, but even so, it still makes a fair difference ( I remember reading that having ~2000 tenacity reduces our damage taken by around 5%, can't remember how it affects other traits).

The DPS materia also make a rather small difference all in all, but they should because it's all just materia, and I do agree with what you said about how people shouldn't make a huge deal about it. So yeah, you won't see any drastic changes if you meld this way either, it's not like that's only limited to Tenacity. But, I will not ignore the possibility that a run (mainly the dps check)
CAN be saved if the Tank puts out a little extra damage, however, my counter is this: if a group is that reliant on the Tank putting out a little extra damage to get a clear, there is a big problem with that group, because that should not happen.

At the end of the day, it just comes down to subjective persona preference. Would you rather take a little less damage and be Tankier at the cost of doing a little less damage, or do more damage at the cost of taking a little more damage. Personally, I believe that a Tank has no business ever sacrificing defense or passing up any way to increase their survivability, but I won't force my views on everybody, I just play my way and let others do what they wanna do. In general, the problem comes when others who have an imaginary superiority complex attack you and try to make you feel like you don't know what you're doing.

[ArianeEwah]

Love this thread, thanks for making it! all the guides I've watched on Youtube and online have lead me to believe Crit is always king, even on a Pally, which I play. I have all 450+ gear with several 460 and several pieces overmelded. I'm sitting about 2680 Crit, 1890 Det and 1200 DH... I;m a bit of a min maxer so I like to optimize as much as possible.. so you're all saying I should be focusing on DH instead of Crit??

If you are running solo or w/o SCH/DRG, DH is better than Crit until you have ~4k Crit alone. If you're running with SCH/DRG this may drift towards Crit, but you still would need roughly 3.5k for it to be stronger than DH. What is exact value when Crit becomes better than DH in raid scenarios? I dunno, there are too many factors. I think even the theory groups on discord will blow their minds before they have the perfect answer.

Anyway, here are some statistics for nerds:

DET 1330 [340+990] -> +3.9%
CRIT 1370 [380+990] -> +3.06%
DH 1370 [380+990] -> +4.125%
TEN 1370 [380+990] -> +3%

Here are really low stats, Crit is just as good as Ten.

DET 1990 [340+1650] -> +6.5%
CRIT 2030 [380+1650] -> +5.5%
DH 2030 [380+1650] -> +6.875%
TEN 2030 [380+1650] -> +5%

While Crit gets higher than Ten, it scales worse than Det/DH.

DET 2650 [340+2310] -> +9.1%
CRIT 2690 [380+2310] -> +8.26%
DH 2690 [380+2310] -> +9.625%
TEN 2690 [380+2310] -> +7%

Crit hit the point where it scales better now, but is still behind Det.

DET 3640 [340+3300] -> +13%
CRIT 3680 [380+3300] -> +13%
DH 3680 [380+3300] -> +13.75%
TEN 3680 [380+3300] -> +10%

This is the breakpoint for Crit, from here out on it will beat Det.

DET 4300 [340+3960] -> +15.6%
CRIT 4340 [380+3960] -> +16.56%
DH 4340 [380+3960] -> +16.5%
TEN 4340 [380+3960] -> +12%

Crit beats DH, at this point DH becomes worthless as melds unless Crit is maxed.

DET 5290 [340+4950] -> +19.5%
CRIT 5330 [380+4950] -> +22.5%
DH 5330 [380+4950] -> +20.625%
TEN 5330 [380+4950] -> +15%

Not sure if we can ever reach those numbers, just wanted to show the scaling.

All values for solo/non-raid (no SCH/DRG) scenarios!

If you go for Det/DH, you will have a more... 'safe damage' build, but you can barely scale higher. With Crit/DH it's more rng-based, but you CAN scale higher.

[Seabhacgra]

If you are running solo or w/o SCH/DRG, DH is better than Crit until you have ~4k Crit alone. If you're running with SCH/DRG this may drift towards Crit, but you still would need roughly 3.5k for it to be stronger than DH. What is exact value when Crit becomes better than DH in raid scenarios? I dunno, there are too many factors. I think even the theory groups on discord will blow their minds before they have the perfect answer.

Anyway, here are some statistics for nerds:


Here are really low stats, Crit is just as good as Ten.


While Crit gets higher than Ten, it scales worse than Det/DH.


Crit hit the point where it scales better now, but is still behind Det.


This is the breakpoint for Crit, from here out on it will beat Det.


Crit beats DH, at this point DH becomes worthless as melds unless Crit is maxed.


Not sure if we can ever reach those numbers, just wanted to show the scaling.

All values for solo/non-raid (no SCH/DRG) scenarios!

If you go for Det/DH, you will have a more... 'safe damage' build, but you can barely scale higher. With Crit/DH it's more rng-based, but you CAN scale higher.

Thanks for this info! The only raiding I do is the PUGGED Eden's and old school roulettes right now. No access to a static right now.. so most the time I run dungeons and solo things like Eureka and Diadem and Fates etc.. I'm just a bit neurotic about constantly improving my character. This is why I want to meld the best possible so I can be the best Tank for my friends and family.

[ArianeEwah]

snip

Tex_Mex is right about the fact that Ten 'benefits' are not as great as they seem in most content. Savage bosses, and dungeon trash/bosses do so little damage with their AAs that even 5% damage reduction is neglectable.
Everytime you're using a dCD Tenacitys damage reduction loses value. e.g. at 5% base damage reduction, Rampart reduces it to 4%, Sentinel to 3.5%, Invuls completely ignore it (0%).
Another reason that has been mentioned are healer CDs. Healers refrain from using their GCD healing spells. If Ten does not save you a healing GCD, then there are no benefits.

Anyway, there duties where Tenacity might actually become a life-saver: Ultimates. Those fights are rough, the bosses hit like truck even with AAs. It's common that healers use GCD healing spells here. Sometimes even dCDs alone might not cut it, and b/c there are so many tank busters in succession, you need a good dCD/heal mapping. The DPS checks on previous Ultimates show that they are not as tight as week 1 savage DPS checks. e.g. SB savage fight on min iLvl (O4s, O8s, O12s) had way harder DPS checks than Garuda in UWU, you could even skip her last tank/party buster. Losing 2% damage on tanks wouldn't make a difference, but the 5% damage reduction might save our sorry tank arses here.

But, I will not ignore the possibility that a run (mainly the dps check) CAN be saved if the Tank puts out a little extra damage, however, my counter is this: if a group is that reliant on the Tank putting out a little extra damage to get a clear, there is a big problem with that group, because that should not happen.

As I said above, DPS checks on last savage fights are rough, especially in week 1 on min iLvl. Every little damage helps, and if it's ~2% from 2 tanks, so be it. Had bad procs on BRD? Low crit/DH despite a 'perfect' rotation on DPS? Every single DPS point helps.
Ten will most likely NOT save a GCD heal on a tank in savage fights. If it does, and the damage difference by gaining an additional e.g. Glare is higher than, or equal to the lost ~2% damage dealt on the tank(s), then it is indeed beneficial. But again, scenarios where this is the case are rare to non-existent.

I remember reading that having ~2000 tenacity reduces our damage taken by around 5%, can't remember how it affects other traits

At the same time it increases damage dealt and healing DONE (it says 'HP restored', it is effectively the same as Det, but it doesn't increase the healing you 'receive'). A Cure that healed for 400 on the tank before Ten applied will still heal 400 after. On the other hand, Souleater healing will increase from e.g. 300 to 315.

(by the way you were right, at 2030 Ten you gain exactly 5% damage reduction - see stats in my previous post)

PS: I am not sure whether Det also increases your healing potency. The stat itself states: 'HP restored by healing spells'. Clemency is a healing spell, yet Equilibrium, Aurora, Abyssal Drain, and the healing from combos/weaponskills are not. I haven't found any record on how healing abilities are affected...

[TheForce]

@ArianeEwah, all in all, fairly well-crafted response.

[TheForce]

sorry, sent too early. Hate mobile. Anyway, yeah pretty good response. However what you said about how Tenacity is pretty much only useful if it saves a Healer CD.
No. Not at all. Hard disagree. Taking less damage is always useful, especially if you get by a TB and are left with miniscule fractions of your health left. Tenacity is literally a life-saver in said situation.

Also, Determination affects the actual potency of a healing spell (Clemency).