Eden Savage Loot

[HyoMinPark]

Your statement was wrong - also if you didnt know Titania weapons can be bought with 10 tokens you dont have to kill it 50 times.Also implement the system that the other person suggested where it reads the party make up and drops loot for the classes in the party.

Likewise, Savage items can be bought with 4/6/8 books depending on the item. The only difference between Savage tokens and EX tokens are that Savage ones are currently on a weekly lockout.

What ForteNightshade is saying is that you can run the content 50 times and still not see the specific weapon you are after drop from the boss—which is completely true. Titania weapons have a 1 out of 17 chance to drop, which is roughly 0.06%. It’s irrelevant if you can buy the weapon you want after 10 runs: what matters is that there’s a very likely possibility that it doesn’t drop at all. This new Savage system eliminates some of the drop RNG, and the trade-off is increased competition.

Okay math time - 2 tanks 1 chest = 50/50 2 healers 1 chest = 50 / 50 4 DPS 2 chest = 50/ 50 if we are using the system the other person said about it would be a 50/50 chance and limit people to 1 item per floor.

This is incorrect for DPS. DPS would be a 1 in 5 (20%) chance to drop the applicable coffer to drop on all floors save for the first one, which would be a 1 in 4 (25%) chance.

[HyoMinPark]

no it isn't DPS would have a 1 in 4 chance if it were 1 chest if we were using the system you suggested - by increasing DPS chest to 2 DPS would have a 50% chance - especially if we limited the number of loot DPS could gain - there are 4 DPS 50% of them would have an item

I’ll use my static comp as an example—PLD/WAR, WHM/SCH, SAM/NIN/DNC/BLM

Tanks: 50% chance of winning their loot provided the drop is BiS
Healers: 50% of winning their loot provided the drop is BiS

It’s important to consider if these drops end up being BiS or not. If the tank gloves, for example, aren’t BiS, that makes this week tank drop from the second floor useless. Likewise, if the healer pants aren’t BiS, they are worthless. So you actually had 0 drops instead of the 2.


Now for the DPS:

First coffer—25% chance for any DPS to get an applicable piece of gear (Slaying, Scouting, Aiming, Casting) in all but the first floor (33% chance in the first floor since Slaying accessories are shared by all melee DPS).
Second coffer—33% chance provided this system has no duplicates to drop one of the 3 remaining pieces (66% chance on the first floor for accessories).

100% chance to win the DPS drops since they’re locked to role (50% chance to win for Slaying accessories with a double melee comp like mine)—provided that the drop is BiS.

It’s very important that you consider if the drop is BiS or not. A non-BiS drop dropping from a floor is the same as basically getting nothing. You may take it for an upgrade, but it’s not the piece that you “need” and it will be replaced. None of this is considering useful loot probability based off of the items that drop in a single floor and whether or not they’re actually BiS for a job, so your statistical chance of getting a BiS piece of gear is far lower than 50%.


It’s not a straight 50% drop rate for individual DPS coffers because there are 5 different kinds of DPS gear (4 for the accessories). Saying that half of the DPS jobs theoretically get a drop =/= 50% chance; individual chances are 25% for the left side, 33% for the accessories. And this is only the case if the drops were guaranteed to be useful/be BiS—but not all Savage drops are BiS.

You’re confusing the drop chance of applicable gear with “half the DPS get drops”. They are not the same thing.


I’ll consider replying to the wall-of-text post later, but just going to address this:

Took you a long time

I apologize if I am not replying fast enough for you. I had to shower and get ready to head to school for class. So, my apologies that I had more important things to do.

[ForteNightshade]

I'm just suggesting working on the loot system not the difficulty

Which accessibility doesn't apply to outside of meeting the minimum ilvl requirement. You can move the goal post to Narnia, it's still inaccurate.

The way you phrased it did sound elitist

It was blunt. There's a difference. Saying someone has to be good to clear with weaker gear is in no way elitist regardless of how I phrase it.

Your statement was wrong - also if you didnt know Titania weapons can be bought with 10 tokens you dont have to kill it 50 times.Also implement the system that the other person suggested where it reads the party make up and drops loot for the classes in the party.

No, it wasn't. You can keep telling someone they're wrong. It doesn't mean they are because you say so. I'm also well aware of how loot drops work. The point was no content content guarantees a specific drop outside of Leveling. It doesn't matter that you can buy the Primal weapon. That wasn't the argument. You can also buy Savage gear. If you don't want to use consumables, you're at the mercy of RNG. Even with your algorithm suggestion, it's still RNG whether the weapon drops.

Okay math time - 2 tanks 1 chest = 50/50 2 healers 1 chest = 50 / 50 4 DPS 2 chest = 50/ 50 if we are using the system the other person said about it would be a 50/50 chance and limit people to 1 item per floor.

Math time, hmm? Okay...

Tank: Fending
Healer: Healing
DPS: Maiming, Striking, Casting, Aiming

Since only two DPS items can drop, and there are four categories with possible duplicates. It isn't 50%. You have a 1/4 chance per loot drop of it being of the sub-category you're after. Case in point, the Dragoon head and Feet both drop for the DPS slots. Three roles (Second Melee, Caster and Range) received nothing. This is impossible for tanks and healers who have no sub-category within their role itself.

Basically, your math is wrong.

This would allow more people to participate as it would make it more desirable to more people - also again gear extremely fast people geared their main - their 1st alt - and like their 3rd alt. . . .some still smuggling to gear their main - Im suggesting a system that evens it out.

No? The only restriction on Savage is being i450. And that is only if you queue via the raid finder. A full pre-made can be any ilvl they fancy, though it's generally expected you're i450. I can take my alt character, who will be full i450 once I finish the MSQ on her, into Savage right away despite having no gear from Savage. Therefore, Savage gear itself can't be a barrier. Does it make things easier? Sure. But that's also why tome gear exists. Not to mention, 5.1 will release i460 gear.

You keep confusing your arguments. Wanting to tweak the system or offer an alternative is fine, even if I and/or others may disagree with your suggestion. But the current system has zero bearing whatsoever on your ability to participate in Savage.

Why should you be entitled to gear a class you dont play over someone who plays a class and want to gear that class - it comes down to this are you satisfied with gearing 1 main class and allowing others to gear their main class then gearing alts . . .

You have no idea what I play. Speaking specifically, I frequently bounce between Dragoon and Tanks. Therefore, I want to gear both. Just because one of those is my secondary doesn't change the fact we're both participating in the content. Think about it. I'm saying everyone has a fair shot at all the coffers and item upgrades which drop since everyone contributed to the clear. They can, if they feel so inclined, elect to pass on drops. You think they should feel obligated to pass because you want the gear.

Which sounds more entitled?

[ForteNightshade]

-.- any need for childish remarks like this honestly

Stop moving the goal post then. This was now the third time you've changed your prior argument because I proved it wrong.

No it was elitist

I mean, you can say the sky is purple. That doesn't make it purple. There is nothing elitist about saying you need to be good enough to clear with below recommended gear. You just took offense to it.

Your statement was wrong sorry it was.

Once again, the water isn't red just because you keep saying it is.

No Implement the system that was spoken about earlier which I am sure you read about - which basically reads a party's make up and then only uses that loot for the classes making the party up - then implement a 1 item per person limitation and my maths is correct I know my maths but let me break it down for you so that you can see where Im coming from k doll ^^

So in a party there are 2 tanks - 2 healers - and 4 DPS so the tanks would have 1 chest which would give them a 50/50 Same for the healers another 50/50 so DPS so 4 DPS if there was 1 chest that would be 25% chance you are correct there however there is 2 chests and there is also a 1 loot per person - so the DPS who has the first item can not get the 2nd - so technically speaking the 1st chance is a 25% chance - the second for the remaining DPS is 33% R however 50% of the DPS will get an item

You're moving the goal post again. Nowhere did you specify this one roll per person restriction. Ironically, you ignored the example I provided: two Maiming pieces dropped. With the purposed addendum, now the DRG can't roll on both yet no one else wants the second piece. Furthermore, this doesn't account for Striking gear which two melee DPS share and accessories which has multiple overlap. I'll assume your next response will be to abruptly add two Maiming pieces can't drop because like with several arguments now, you keep throwing things on a wall until something sticks.

On top of the above, now you've reintroduced the possible junk drops where people already have the gear that dropped, thus it hits the floor.

In short, your math is still wrong unless they fix the overlap Ninja has with the Physical Range and Dragoon with Monk and Samurai. And even should they do so... that doesn't address the aforementioned duplicate drop potential. If you also want that prevented, you've now effectively guaranteed a whole static can gear up much faster since you're guaranteed never to see duplicate item drops and you've doubled the loot table for every floor except the first.

I am not confusing my arguments at all - also who said anything about my ability to participate in savage - I said if the loot system were tweaked so that Need / Greed were implemented it would be far more appealing to people due to the fact they could gear their main before someone gears their 3rd or 4th alt - which it in my opinion would

You literally said "This would allow more people to participate." I didn't interpret that as you directly but the general you because it implies people couldn't participate in Savage without gear... from Savage. See why your arguments are confused? You've contradicted yourself in the same post, doll. ^^

[Mavrias]

LOL i havent moved the goal post and your remarks are childish- and you have not proven me wrong but feel free to think you have I mean if that is what you need - my argument is still the EXACT same - my argument is this - This system is amazing for people who are in statics - but very unfriendly to people who Pug - it also allowes people to gear multiple classes while some struggle to gear their main class - I think this needs to be evened out by implementing a need / greed system - That is my argument that has REMAINED the exact same





You were being elitist





I have said a number of times it was suggested by one of the other people - and I said it was a good idea and that I agreed with it - like I agreed with the need / greed - and implementing a system that read the partys make up - did you not read their comments.






My maths is not wrong you just haven't paid any attention to what people have suggested be implemented there has already a solution to this been thought up . . .again if you I must explain to you the following 2 tanks 1 chest = 50% 2 healers - 1 chest = 50% 4 DPS 2 chests = 50% (DPS chance are 25% and 33R%) Also just an FYI most statics were geared up very quickly Im generally talking about a system that is more friendly to pugs, and this I believe is it.




I haven't contradicted myself - also can I just explain when I have said PEOPLE I have meant PEOPLE (i generally say people for more than 1 person) if I am talking to 1 person I say You, I assumed everyone did the same. Also If people do not need savage gear to do savage please explain why you insist people roll for savage gear for their alts and allow it to take priority over someone who is rolling for their main, my opinion is a need and greed system would be better - and it would be. And I also believe I said people would find it more appealing if the loot system was more structured - I believe they would. Would you be more likely to enter something knowing its just you and a few others - or would you go in to something happy if it was you and like hundreds of others competing for stuff - Personally I would prefer the first thats why I suggested structuring the loot (well someone else suggested how) and implementing a need greed and 1 item per person sort of thing, people will be more attracted to things when they have higher chances of getting items and that's just a general fact of life

Someone rolling for their alt isnt taking priority over you. They need it for a class, you need it for a class. You both roll need, so you have equal priority. You just have to out roll them. Honestly this whole thread has primarily been you arguing to not have to compete with others for rolls. If you want that then honestly the best thing for you to do would be to make a lootmaster party.

[ForteNightshade]

LOL i havent moved the goal post and your remarks are childish- and you have not proven me wrong but feel free to think you have I mean if that is what you need - my argument is still the EXACT same - my argument is this - This system is amazing for people who are in statics - but very unfriendly to people who Pug - it also allowes people to gear multiple classes while some struggle to gear their main class - I think this needs to be evened out by implementing a need / greed system - That is my argument that has REMAINED the exact same

And three different people now in the last two pages have all pointed out how your argument is wrong yet you making different addendum to it. Earlier you cited the Primal weapons and accessories, which use the old system. You never once suggested that be changed to a 1/1/2 loot drop. You simply cited the Primals and said nothing else otherwise. Furthermore, pointing out how you keep changing your arguments is not childish. Don't let the snark attached? Stop moving the goal post or...

You were being elitist

No the water is not red - I never said it was - I said your statement was wrong and it was sorry if that upset you

Insisting you're right because you say so. Please explain how saying you have to be good enough to clear Savage while undergeared is in any way elitist? Are you really going to cling to this "it's not what you said but how you said it?!" nonsense? And you want to talk about childish...

I have said a number of times it was suggested by one of the other people - and I said it was a good idea and that I agreed with it - like I agreed with the need / greed - and implementing a system that read the partys make up - did you not read their comments.

Great! Either quote them or reiterate the suggestion in your own posts when someone replies because nothing you've stated insinuated half the arguments you're now making. I shouldn't have to go back and comb through every post in the thread. Present the argument yourself/

My maths is not wrong you just haven't paid any attention to what people have suggested be implemented there has already a solution to this been thought up . . .again if you I must explain to you the following 2 tanks 1 chest = 50% 2 healers - 1 chest = 50% 4 DPS 2 chests = 50% (DPS chance are 25% and 33R%) Also just an FYI most statics were geared up very quickly Im generally talking about a system that is more friendly to pugs, and this I believe is it.

As stated... again. You're conflating two different things; two DPS drops compared to two useful DPS drops that can never be duplicated. The latter is an important distinction because if two Maiming pieces can drop (Head and Feet), then it isn't 50% by any metric. And yes, statics can clear quickly. Your solution will make that even faster because you're increasing the loot. Tanks and Healers often wait a few weeks before receiving gear since DPS matters more for prog. Your suggestion guarantees they get a coffer each week; possibly with no chance at a duplicate. Four people are getting gear, including weapons, bodies and legs instead of one—two if you happen to get lucky with the random weapon drop. For statics, you'll be done in less a month for everything but accessories.

None of this covers the tome upgrade items. Are we going to divvy those up based on role too? And gearing alts under your revised system forces you to do so on lesser geared jobs since the game won't drop anything unless that job's in the party.

I haven't contradicted myself - also can I just explain when I have said PEOPLE I have meant PEOPLE (i generally say people for more than 1 person) if I am talking to 1 person I say You, I assumed everyone did the same. Also If people do not need savage gear to do savage please explain why you insist people roll for savage gear for their alts and allow it to take priority over someone who is rolling for their main, my opinion is a need and greed system would be better - and it would be. And I also believe I said people would find it more appealing if the loot system was more structured - I believe they would. Would you be more likely to enter something knowing its just you and a few others - or would you go in to something happy if it was you and like hundreds of others competing for stuff - Personally I would prefer the first thats why I suggested structuring the loot (well someone else suggested how) and implementing a need greed and 1 item per person sort of thing, people will be more attracted to things when they have higher chances of getting items and that's just a general fact of life

... I don't know how many ways I can explain to you that wanting something is not the same as needing it. You don't need Savage gear for Savage since, you know, you have to be able to complete Savage to actually get drops from it. You want better gear. They are not the same thing. That person rolling for their alt jobs contributed to the clear just as much as you—possibly more depending on skill. Why should they be entitled to nothing because they happen to be gearing a second job while you'e still on your first? Furthermore, you know what will happen with your purposed system? People won't join PFs on their better geared mains, they'll join on weaker jobs so they can Need potential drops. If I want Ninja or Tank gear, I'll join a party as one of those jobs in i450 instead of my i470 Dragoon since doing so on the latter guarantees I can nothing.