The most Limited Content: Low-Level Dungeons

[linay]

I fail to see how making content more enjoyable is a bad thing though.

Because there are people like me who find low level duties enjoyable for what they are. I don't want them changing these low level duties. Focus on making new high level duties.

[Mahrze]

On one side: Easy, nigh brain dead content that usually serves for new players to adjust better to how jobs play than PotD. It only having 4-5 skills (to me) shows how brain dead it is. Getting things like Ifrit Normal (lv 20) or Cape Westwind in any roulette is basically a blessing.


On the other side: I understand that people would like to experience something better or that if its a full performed 70+ party it "should send you" to content that you can do in your own level range. And it is a roulette after all: dozens of dungeons for RNG to pick for you, even if you're lvl 79 and need one Mt Gulg run to lvl.


There are leveling alternatives, like PotD, BTQs starting lvl 40, even FATEs.

[Noitems]

I fail to see how making content more enjoyable is a bad thing though.

I understand where you are coming from, but you need to remember these early dungeons aren't designed for us who have clearly reached endgame of the third expac, they're designed for new people just coming into the game.

Giving too many actions for new players is a sensory overload or leads to confusion, and they're not going to be able to refine themselves if they need to understand managing all of their cds. Let alone the high player mentality of getting these dungeons over asap and it's just going to lead to arguements when they don't understand what you're saying.

These skills are limited to reflect their progress, and it puts the core fundamentals in place for them. Hell WE the players with experience can also explain to them how to handle certain things or learn their kit so they can start getting into bigger pulls.

I know there's this argument going around about why they don't give us all the skills we have into the lower level jobs and nerf them for our much igher level jobs. To that end are we really asking the guys who are currently having balancing issues with our endgame ranged jobs to take the time to go and rework lvl 16 dungeons to shave off like 3 minutes a run?

If you're a group of experienced players who want a challenge then just do Wall to Walls like normal with proper cd management and Tank/Brd aoe. I used to joke a long time ago leveling my jobs in Stormblood using #MakeTamtarafun where I would pull wall to wall in Deepcroft as a WAR using my kit and berserk/overpower spam mobs to pieces. This was before the tank buffs and where aggro was actually something you needed to pay attention to. Things like that are ways you can make the lower level dungeons fun for the experienced players, pushing yourself to get it done as quickly as possible while having fun. Even now with current tank buffs the longest low level dungeons (Satasha and Copperbell) at most last about 17 minutes with a tank aoeing and proper management. That's the usual length of a current expert dungeon run too, so it's not even that long by comparison,

[Clouse_Cleyra]

Leveling roulette and the max dungeons of your level both gives 1/3 of a level (on high levels), so O dont understand why you dont fo your levwl dungeons if you want all your skills

[SerLuke]

I think the best compromise would be to make it so every job has an aoe skill they can use at lvl 15, no need to make entire lvl 80 kits available.

[MariaArvana]

Balance around DPS. If a level 20 does 1000 DPS and a level 80 does 10000 DPS, the potency sync for level 80 is damage * 0.1.

Again, what milestone would you balance the 80 idea around? I've seen MNKs do anywhere from 14k dps to 6k dps in the DF based on skill. That 6k MNK would be fine doing 1000 dps with a 2-button rotation, but you'd literally neuter and make that player weaker by using the scaling method on them if you assumed they'd be capable of doing the same as the 14k MNK. It's literally far more complicated than you think, since you have to balance around not just potencies, the content, etc. But you also have to balance around player skill to not make the new system literally a waste of time due to it making everyone weaker.

We don't even need to be precise because leveling dungeons already aren't precise. They give lots of leeway for missing skills, variations in job balance (which can be terrible below the level cap), inexperienced players, and more. It's not as complicated as it's being made out to be and SE already knows roughly how to scale for level already because they know how much damage you're supposed to do in each dungeon.

They give a lot of leeway precisely because they know every single player will have access to the same potential toolkit. Throwing in potency scaling just creates a giant mess of developer balancing nightmares.

We can keep level sync as an option for those who want it. Players could choose between potency or level sync.

That's not how the roulettes are programmed though, and I doubt they're interested in re-programming the roulettes to account for such things. Also it wouldn't be a potency or level sync, it'd be both at once. You can't be level 80 and waltz into a dungeon due to the fact you have 100x+ stats than a level 15 player in sastasha does, so level sync would be active no matter what. Potency scaling implementation would be all or nothing with how they've programmed their current system.

At level 15, AST is a broken healer when level synced because of ED. All those extra high level skills are unnecessary and while they might make things easier they won't significantly change much. As for the MRD/WAR example, Rampart, etc, doesn't work on potency, but the numbers could still be adjusted. For example a level 80's Rampart might only be 10%. Again it doesn't really matter because at level 15 you almost don't have to heal as things are currently. What will make the biggest difference is the skill of the player, just as it does now.

Remember when I said 'developer balancing nightmare'? What you said is literally the reason why it'd be a nightmare.

How would you change the high level abilities so that they'd still be useful with their new numbers, but not completely useless due to synced potencies/numbers? Think carefully on it for a minute.

Lets go with WHM quickly. a level 15 AST has zero regens. For regen to not be OP and completely outright crush everything that level 15 AST could ever possibly do, you'd have to nerf its potency so much that it'd be literally worthless to use, completely defeating the point of implementing potency scaling. Lets go with another. WHM's wings ability, which currently grants 10% damage reduction. If you nerfed it to say 1%, then what's the point of it even existing anymore at that level? 1% is going to do basically nothing, so what was the point of implementing potency sync if it may as well not exist? How about benediction? How would you modify a 100% full heal to meet parity with a level 15 AST without making it useless?

Also how do you balance jobs with AoE at 80 vs jobs with no AoE at level 15? like DRG. Having a LNC would always be statistically 100% worse all the time, since having AoE > no aoe. Unless you want to also nerf the DRG's aoe potency to the point it'd be useless to use which again calls into question the point of even implementing potency sync when half of your skills would be useless/nerfed to the point of non-use.

It's literally far, far more complicated and would essentially be asking to re-write every single ability at literally every single level to account for a TON of variables, requirements and balancing quotas. I've worked as QA testing for game companies when I was younger, these systems sound easy in the eyes of consumers who don't have to worry about every single fact of balancing that would be involved, but are infinitely more complex than what you're imagining to actually implement and not simply be a broken mess. A potency scaling system as you described would be a statistical nightmare of balancing issues, infinitely more work for essentially little to no payoff in the developers eyes.

[ADarklore]

It seems some people don't understand the term "GRIND" when playing an MMO. Grinding isn't always fun, many times it's not, it's a means to an end... and if you look at every other MMO, they have a 'grind' that many don't enjoy but do it anyway it's inherent in almost every MMO. It seems like that is what this argument is about... people wanting the roulette grind to be fun... without accepting that there are other things they could be doing/grinding that may be more enjoyable. If people are going to quit because they cannot adjust to the game, then that's on them, and clearly this game isn't for them in the first place... but based on the numbers, this game IS working well for millions of others. I'd much rather have the devs spend more time working on content for the majority of players that already love the game, than trying to rework content for the minority who dislike it currently, who in reality, probably wouldn't invest long term in this game anyway.

I've been working on leveling my GC squadron... and guess what, it involves GRINDING the same low level dungeons over and over and over again... and I'm perfectly fine with that. I'm running my level 66 DNC and it doesn't bother me one bit that I suddenly don't have access to all my skills or have to adjust my rotation when moving between dungeons.

[MrKusakabe]

Giving too many actions for new players is a sensory overload or leads to confusion, and they're not going to be able to refine themselves if they need to understand managing all of their cds.

The newbies obviously keep their skillset low - because of their level.
We "veterans" however should not be crippled like that. When I am in a Roulette and can not even Corps-A-Corps, so after my 2-skill "rotation" I walk up to the enemy and whack him with my one melee attack and then have to walk back again. Not sure how that helps the newbie. It is even kinda counterproductive when you read about RDM and what you teach newbies is a lackluster "this-or-that" casting followd by "walk up to the enemy, do 3x some funny arm movements and then walk out" situation.

I would have less of a bonus. We get the bonus because these dungeons are terribly boring to play, but then we are supposed to come and help. Instead of making it fun, they slap a bonus over it. Eh...I am here to play and enjoy my fights, thanks. There is literally no difference between me doing a 120-damage Verflare or 15,000 - because the HP and everything scales. The dungeon would take the same time, the newbies keep their smaller skillset, we still keep the wait times low but I have fun meanwhile.

Putting a nonsensical band-aid over it ("you lose 85% of your spells that cripples your profession so much it's not even recognizable but get an EXP bonus for that") is worse than having no Roulette at all.

And let's be honest: Do you really care how your mates manage their skills? Do you really get distracted from that? No? Me neither. Why should a newbie then?

Sincerely,

[PyurBlue]

Again, what milestone would you balance the 80 idea around? I've seen MNKs do anywhere from 14k dps to 6k dps in the DF based on skill. That 6k MNK would be fine doing 1000 dps with a 2-button rotation, but you'd literally neuter and make that player weaker by using the scaling method on them if you assumed they'd be capable of doing the same as the 14k MNK. It's literally far more complicated than you think, since you have to balance around not just potencies, the content, etc. But you also have to balance around player skill to not make the new system literally a waste of time due to it making everyone weaker.

You'd have to balance around the top DPS. Yes, someone who isn't optimal would then be below par. Low level dungeons already have huge variations in DPS for very simple reasons like using AoE vs not. Nothing really changes. If it's that big of an issue, then players could be given the option to swap between potency or level sync (I know you have more to say on that, but I'll add more when I get to that part of your post).

They give a lot of leeway precisely because they know every single player will have access to the same potential toolkit. Throwing in potency scaling just creates a giant mess of developer balancing nightmares.

I think I'm missing the point you're making here. If everyone is using the same toolkit (which isn't true between level variation within a level sync window and role actions, which don't get synced) then you don't need leeway. Everyone is balanced by default. We have excess leeway right now, and it's not because of skill syncing, it's because of item level and player skill.

What this means for potency sync: there is leeway, which reduces the precision to which skills need to be balanced. A potency synced player and an on level player don't need to have the exact same potential DPS. The game will work despite them having fairly large differences in performance. All SE would need to do is scale potencies such that synced and unsyced are in the same general DPS range. They have to know what these DPS ranges are, or dungeons balance would be completely inconsistent. Balancing is also helped by the game's difficulty curve, lower levels have more leeway for imbalance higher levels, while higher levels will naturally require less and less syncing.

That's not how the roulettes are programmed though, and I doubt they're interested in re-programming the roulettes to account for such things. Also it wouldn't be a potency or level sync, it'd be both at once. You can't be level 80 and waltz into a dungeon due to the fact you have 100x+ stats than a level 15 player in sastasha does, so level sync would be active no matter what. Potency scaling implementation would be all or nothing with how they've programmed their current system.

Stats will need to remain synced but that's fine because they don't change anything about gameplay, they're just numbers and however they're synced now will work with potency sync. Potency sync would have synced stats, all skills available, and modified potencies. Level sync would be what we have now. We already know that skills can be replaced based on level (ie Thunder I vs Thunder III), which could potentially be used to introduce modified potency versions of skills. I'm sure it will take work on SE's part, but I'd like to see this implemented so the trade off is worth it in my opinion. If they can make it work, great, if not, oh well.

Remember when I said 'developer balancing nightmare'? What you said is literally the reason why it'd be a nightmare.

How would you change the high level abilities so that they'd still be useful with their new numbers, but not completely useless due to synced potencies/numbers? Think carefully on it for a minute.

Lets go with WHM quickly. a level 15 AST has zero regens. For regen to not be OP and completely outright crush everything that level 15 AST could ever possibly do, you'd have to nerf its potency so much that it'd be literally worthless to use, completely defeating the point of implementing potency scaling. Lets go with another. WHM's wings ability, which currently grants 10% damage reduction. If you nerfed it to say 1%, then what's the point of it even existing anymore at that level? 1% is going to do basically nothing, so what was the point of implementing potency sync if it may as well not exist? How about benediction? How would you modify a 100% full heal to meet parity with a level 15 AST without making it useless?

Also how do you balance jobs with AoE at 80 vs jobs with no AoE at level 15? like DRG. Having a LNC would always be statistically 100% worse all the time, since having AoE > no aoe. Unless you want to also nerf the DRG's aoe potency to the point it'd be useless to use which again calls into question the point of even implementing potency sync when half of your skills would be useless/nerfed to the point of non-use.

Level 15 ED, in level 15 content, is already stronger than Benediction. It's an 85ish percent heal on a 40 second CD vs a 100% heal on a 3 minute CD. Comparing the skills side by side, AST wins. A high level WHM obviously has a better skillset as a whole though, particularly regen availability as you point out. This doesn't change the fact that healing at level 15 isn't very demanding. A synced AST can go for nearly 100% DPS uptime and weave ED every now and then. A high-level potency-synced WHM could put regens on the tank constantly. It's not much of a difference. The mid 20's/low 30's where ED is a little weaker and AST still can't regen makes thing a little tougher to balance, but not by much. Regen might just be reduced to a secondary heal that lets you space out Cure casts rather than be strong enough to heal on its own.

Was there any particular reason to choose 1% damage reduction for Temperance? That would make it nearly pointless (I'm assuming the healing increase would be the number), but it doesn't have to be reduced to 1%. Let's make it 5%. AST can already manage to heal entry level dungeons almost without touching Benefic, so if WHM doesn't need to press something one of its skills, that's not terribly different. Also remember that you'll be getting Holy and Assize. Even if Temperance is pointless that doesn't negate the benefits of having other skills.

When it comes to AoE, it's literally no different from now. DRG's don't have AoE at low levels. RDM's and BLM's do. RDM's and BLM's are absolutely without a doubt superior to low level DRG's in dungeons with level sync. With Potency sync, Some DRG's will have AoE and deal more damage than DRG's that aren't leveled enough. At least some of the DRG's will be able to compete with RDM's and BLM's in that situation. This is the leeway I mentioned. We only have to balance to the extent that the game is balanced now, which gives us a lot of room to play with potencies.

It's literally far, far more complicated and would essentially be asking to re-write every single ability at literally every single level to account for a TON of variables, requirements and balancing quotas. I've worked as QA testing for game companies when I was younger, these systems sound easy in the eyes of consumers who don't have to worry about every single fact of balancing that would be involved, but are infinitely more complex than what you're imagining to actually implement and not simply be a broken mess. A potency scaling system as you described would be a statistical nightmare of balancing issues, infinitely more work for essentially little to no payoff in the developers eyes.

SE has the rough potency scale for all levels already from expected dungeon run times. So the first step is creating a multiplier curve that will scale down a level 80 to the appropriate DPS for all levels. From there we might need individual tweaks, but the game already has the ability to handle this, or something relatively close (tiered spells/abilities). A level by level adjustment is completely unnecessary, and near the top levels, probably 60 on, adjustments will be minimal. It's not a snap your fingers and done thing, but I see nothing indicating that it's outside the realm of possibility.

[KadaRemnant]

This is a discussion thread, so keep it civil.

I'd like to leave feedback and propose a suggestion for low level dungeons, particularly:

• Sastasha
• Tam-Tara Deepcroft
• Copperbell Mines
• Halatali
• Toto-Rak
• Haukke Manor
• Brayflox
• Qarn
• Cutters Cry
• The Stone Vigil
• Dzemeal Darkhold
  The Aurum Vale

We all met these moments, especially at this time, where everyone is leveling their jobs to 80. We all get a feeling for the new rotation, new gauges, new skills. But once you enter leveling roulette, everything gets significantly lackluster, the rotation isnt working. Some skills dont even make sense, gauges fill up though no skills to use. In some dungeons, like sastasha you end up with 4-5 skills!

And the worst, dungeons themselves are pretty basic, unentertaining, they dont teach any mechanics, they dont require any concentration. Just simply spam a button and be done with it.

I would like to see a rework for these dungeons. They should stay newcomer friendly, yet keep the entertaining and challenge aspect for all others that have visited those dungeons trillion times.

• Add boss mechanics that are common in levels above 60+, yet more forgiving for mistakes.
• Add new playstyles in these dungeons, as in "a treasure appeared inside the dungeon!", "there are some civils held hostage by monsters, find them and rescue at all cost!", "a beast tribe has invaded the dungeon, make haste and clear them all".
• Enable more abilites but with synced potenices! The combat feels so slow... and limiting.
• How about more Duty actions and ATM's?

Which should only work for sync runs, or preferbly roulettes. With rewards ofcourse!

After many years, not only me but many other veterans experience fatigue inside these dungeons. Sometimes even fall asleep mid pull, which is a sign for... boredom.

I would be happy to to see people commenting, discussing, voting even. I believe, it is due time that old content and especially old dungeons get revisited.

That's your opinion. I'm perfectfly fine with old dungeons and hotbars.