How do we feel about tank damage right now?

[Edax]

Personally I wish tanks did more damage, not much maybe 1k-1.5k across the board but it is what it is.

Problem with mindset if it was not for DPS optimization the tank role would be utterly boring outside of mechanic heavy encounters, and even then once you learn the fight at that point what else is there to strive for? Not like threat management is a thing, or positioning is all that difficult. Personal damage does matter because it is something outside of the fight a tank player can strive to improve an optimize.

Leaving that aside from a sense of progression and character growth it is honestly a crappy feeling having the top end be more or less where we were lack expansion. Just my two cents on the subject. Either way it is a personal desire, that is why I also said it is what it is, because tank balance has never been this close before and it is a personal issue I have, though I do wish war was a tad more engaging to play, but that is another issue.

You don't need a tank buff to achieve a personal damage high score. If anything, asking SE for a tank dps buff defeats the whole purpose of personal achievement cause it's not personal improvement that's driving up the numbers.

[Awha]

You don't need a tank buff to achieve a personal damage high score. If anything, asking SE for a tank dps buff defeats the whole purpose of personal achievement cause it's not personal improvement that's driving up the numbers.

Striving for optimization and wanting more personal damage do not have to be one in the same. Having a higher DPS potential in terms of percentage of how close they are to a pure dps adds the sense of personal growth and reason to push ahead. It is a personal reason, I did not mean to imply they were one in the same, I still strive for optimization as is, even if it personally a crappy feeling that overall my high end is a lower over percentage then the expansion before. Personally it did hamper my motivations for playing, on the top the reasons like the blandness of the wars playstyle but that is another thing. What I was trying to but did not do very well in reply to the person quote was that personal damage number and percentage compared to pure dps does play a large role in the motivating factor and the reason many tanks enjoy the role. Overall having engaging classes / roles across the board is important from a game having means of measuring your performance against others not just within your role is entertaining, while also being selfish.

Did not mean to imply that they are one in the same, they were meant to be two different thoughts in that post.

Granted, I do think people would whine less about overall damage if the tank class was far more engaging in terms of play style and raid responsibility / involvement. Do not get me wrong tanks are still important, but the play style is bland, and the damage aspect really made FFXIV a unique experience.

[Quor]

What I was trying to but did not do very well in reply to the person quote was that personal damage number and percentage compared to pure dps does play a large role in the motivating factor and the reason many tanks enjoy the role.

If ACT and FFlogs did not exist, no one would know what their damage numbers were. Would this change your motivation and reason for playing a tank? I won't pretend to speak for others (or "many" tanks) so I'll say that my motivation for playing a tank is to tank. Not to deal damage. If I want to deal damage I play SAM, or DRG, or DNC, or any of the other dps classes. When I'm on tank I do as much damage as possible, sure, but it's always secondary to doing the necessary things a tank needs to do.

[Awha]

If ACT and FFlogs did not exist, no one would know what their damage numbers were. Would this change your motivation and reason for playing a tank? I won't pretend to speak for others (or "many" tanks) so I'll say that my motivation for playing a tank is to tank. Not to deal damage. If I want to deal damage I play SAM, or DRG, or DNC, or any of the other dps classes. When I'm on tank I do as much damage as possible, sure, but it's always secondary to doing the necessary things a tank needs to do.

Regarding many it was a poor choice of word, was just going based off my personal experience and experience of other tanking communities online especially warriors. Still many is an assumption since I cannot back it up either way nitpicking aside. Personally I play tank because because I enjoy the role, plus it is nice to be a tiny character tanking a giant monster. That point aside since I do not do ultimate, and things properly differ greatly in that content, as it stands personal tank responsibility is lacking in terms of fight design. It is not horrible, but outside the standard tank responsibly positioning, tank swaps, cool down management not much else to do personally. I mean I am one of those weird warriors who do not want an extension on our buff timer since maintaining that buff is a form of engagement. I have always played tanks for their level of engagement. I wish threat management was a thing, I was wish fights required more tank swaps, I wish positioning had a greater level of importance, I wish they would throw more stuff at tanks to do outside of ultimate.

It is not about the damage per-se more so what the percentage and potential damage mean in terms of engagement. It is not like we do low damage by any means, sure percentage wise it is lower then before but it is not horrible and I do agree tank balance is in a great spot but the engagement is lacking, and while I do not see SE making content outside of ultimate that much more demanding on tanks or healers they could at the very least make the roles feel better to play, and bigger numbers while silly to some for others like myself it is gratifying to see, and starving for that optimization that might to beat a pure dps player even if they are playing poorly is also engaging.

Sure if ACT and FFLOGs were not a thing this may be a moot topic, but the thing is they are thing and I doubt they will ever go away so we cannot deny that personal numbers can be used as a motivating factor, and they should not be belittled for having that motivation especially when DPS orientated tanks and healers have been one aspect that differs FFXIV from other games even if it was not intentionally designed to be that way by the devs it has been that way since I have been playing back during the tale end of HW, and from what I have been told it was like that even during ARR.

I guess what I am trying to say (outside exceptions because they are exceptions) dps has always been that aspect that served as that line between, an okay, good, and great tank, and depending on were your tank fell the visible impact you had on the group was clear. Sure groups were able to clear content with a tank sitting in tank stance, but when you ran into a tank that was able to maintain aggro, be easy to heal, and pumps out insane numbers compared to the full tank stance tank it really added something to the experience. It brought me back to that class awe struck moment of damn that guy is awesome, and it gave me a reason to push ahead. I mean if I look back to that situation in today's context as the game is I would not feel the same, because the difference between properly would not be as massive. Do not get me wrong the game as it stands is still enjoyable and tanks still have ways to shine, and I enjoy the raid design and encounters so far. Just personally does not have the same level of engagement that it once had imo.

Though I know my opinion is odd, since I enjoyed dark arts spam, I found that fun.

[Samsta]

No real good counter arguments to the OP were offered though. No one with the desire to see an increase in tank dps was presented with "reason". It was just a subjective opinion that tanks don't need to worry about damage because they are tanks.

There were several though, you guys just don't care since you have obsession with damage numbers.

[BarretOblivion]

Several were offered, most notably:
1 - apples and oranges comparison of tank damage against healer/dps damage. Comparing damage across roles is a terrible idea and should not in any way govern balance decisions.
2 - the game, as designed right now, is completely clearable. This means the content we have in game has been designed with the current dps/mitigation/healing issues in mind.


I can understand "it feels bad" but please understand that "it feels bad" is also selfish. Content is clearable well within margins of error right now with things the way they are. Asking for more dps simply because "it feels bad" is not a reason to throw job balance on the line. The jobs are all balanced for the content in the game right now. Fights are being cleared in about the same amount of time as they were in the last raid tier. Without the presence of an outside dps meter, there's no way anyone would know that they are dealing less % damage, because the entirety of the game is designed to be beaten with things the way they are now.

So while yes I do understand "it feels bad," it's ultimately a stupid, selfish reason. Not to say you yourself are stupid, but that this reasoning is stupid. Wanting bigger numbers simply because you want bigger numbers is stupid when it would come at the cost of what is arguably the most balanced the tanks have ever been. Furthermore, as others have noted in this post, comparing across roles is a bad idea in general, and not something that should be used as a metric for balancing damage, so using that as an argument is disingenuous at best and actively malicious at worst.

You completely skip the arguements of tanks which are "We all got nerfed from what we were scaled at beforehand." How would you like your job to get their scaling nerfed next expansion? How about your entire role and force other to have to work harder for something that is completely out of your control.
Yeah content is "clearable" but keep in mind this is the first tier and its been stated that this raid tier they nerfed boss HP values by 15% unlike other first raid tiers where they nerf it by 10%. Gee I wonder why??? "thinking"
Maybe its because ranged DPS were doing too little damage and the pressure got further pushed on DPS to do even higher than they normally did in SB to clear content because one whole role got cut down for something they do.
Healers were supposed to be doing less damage according to every info they gave out so healers would focus on healing but guess what? Now they need to even more than ever DPS. The tanks are balanced in their own bubble... kinda, but overall they are behind, just like Physical Ranged are. So yeah, lets just keep cutting down Tank DPS... won't have any effect on the number of tanks in PF, naaaaah.

[Kabooa]

You completely skip the arguements of tanks which are "We all got nerfed from what we were scaled at beforehand." How would you like your job to get their scaling nerfed next expansion? How about your entire role and force other to have to work harder for something that is completely out of your control.
Yeah content is "clearable" but keep in mind this is the first tier and its been stated that this raid tier they nerfed boss HP values by 15% unlike other first raid tiers where they nerf it by 10%. Gee I wonder why??? "thinking"

What do you mean "Force others to work harder"?

The content is balanced around what the jobs can currently output. If tanks gained another X amount, then future content just takes that into account. AKA everyone is actually working harder, because the ceiling shifted, while only a quarter of the group got the boost.

[J-Reyno]

Again, look in the mirror. You had plenty of people offering counter arguments in a nice tone that were then ignored with what amounts to "but muh deeps" as a response. When people are presented with reason and fail to see it, then respond with the same bullshit that was just refuted, it's clear that they aren't in this for any kind of "discussion." "Other tanks" have told you what we think. You don't like what we have to say, therefore we are making "snide/biting" comments, because apparently your fee-fees have been hurt. That snide/biting enough for you? Bottom line is this; you don't want discussion, you want moar dps and you want it now, and to hell with the state of the rest of the game. No amount of doublespeak will give truth to this lie you continue to perpetuate, and no amount of projecting your own actions onto others will absolve you of said actions.

The best counterargument anyone has presented thus far was Shurrikhan mentioning how a number of tank mechanics have been dumbed down. While I don't entirely agree with Shurri for a variety of reasons, I get the sentiment. The solution then would be to further differentiate fights by adding more tank-specific mechanics that require tanks to do tank things. The answer is not to turn tanks into "dps, but beefier."

Not responding to every argument is not ignoring them. I do have things going on during the day. Sometimes I just read the exchange happening with others. It's not necessary for me to respond to every disagreement, and I won't. I'll respond when and if I choose, typically that is not going to be to every argument especially if there's already a discussion happening. But I might have something to say to someone who is on some bullshit and needs to be corrected. If your feelings are hurt then find somewhere else to spend your time.

What's more, you don't have the authority to decide what has and has not been refuted. Most of the arguments amount to "dps matters to me because I feel like the role is less impactful with less dps" or "the dps doesn't matter because the content will be balanced appropriately anyway and it's fine" or something similar. Neither of these is necessarily right or wrong. The discussion boils down to how the role feels, and that's going to vary by player. So for some people, yes, giving tanks more damage absolutely would solve the problem, and that's facts. While it might frustrate you there's nothing you have to say that would make you as right as you're so desperate to be. Get it? Good. Here's that mirror back.

Now with that said I did read something earlier that I wanted to respond to because there was a good question. Lemme find that....

[BarretOblivion]

What do you mean "Force others to work harder"?

The content is balanced around what the jobs can currently output. If tanks gained another X amount, then future content just takes that into account. AKA everyone is actually working harder, because the ceiling shifted, while only a quarter of the group got the boost.

No. As far as my experience has gone there is more pressure right now on DPS than SB (and yes I have cleared Titan already). You also again are completely ignoring 1 key fact. They specifically decided for this tier to reduce the boss's hp values by 15% prior to release than normal. Which means after this tier the next tier will be normalized. Bosses will have 15% more HP and yes, some DPS will get buffed, but when tanks don't get buffed when their scaling is some of the lowest they have ever been compared to dps (some at 60% or less) of a DPS now we got issues with the balance. Solo activities for tanks are going to take even longer, savage will focus even more heavily on DPS to be doing optimal DPS which means more pressure on them. When one job can't bring its fair weight of DPS then that means you have to find it somewhere else. That pressure from Tanks have been transferred to the 'meta' DPS and the healers now nearly doing as much as tanks.

"Oh well that is not normal" I am going to go baised off my group's parses and our healers are breathing down both of our necks within 800-500 DPS. You have to make up the lack of damage somewhere, you are just moving the numbers around, and as I stated "remember this tier is the 1st and is 15% nerfed"

[J-Reyno]

It's all relative. Should tanks dps more and bosses given more HP to compensate? Should DPS be given less dps and more dps given to tanks?
Or is it an argument that tanks should do more damage and bosses be made easier and faster to kill as a result?

If the time to kill a boss is the same, is there objective value in the distribution ratio of dps between roles?

Here we are. I like your last question here because it highlights part of my issue with the low damage of tanks.

As far as the damage ratio between roles, to me it's about the "power" or as some have described it the "impact" of the role. Yes tanking is necessary because you can take the hits, but like I described previously the act of taking hits mostly boils down to pressing an occasional mitigation skill and relying on passive damage reduction. Outside of that tanks perform their dps rotation and work to pump out as much dps as possible. The actual act of tanking/mitigating is not like healing in this game. Healers have very powerful healing and can bring the entire party from 1hp to full in a matter of seconds. This is the kind of thing that makes a role feel strong, in my opinion, and they do this while dealing nearly the same damage as tanks (and in the case of WHM can do more) with what effectively amounts to one-button rotations.

Imagine a game like Overwatch, which might be a hasty example given the more varied design of heroes in that game's roles. Assuming you're familiar with the game, do you think it would be appropriate for healers in Overwatch, with their very powerful healing, to be able to consistently deal as much damage or even outdamage tank heroes? Of course tanks would still be mandatory so as long as you're taking hits and preventing damage you're doing your job, but do you think that would make healer heroes feel more powerful than tank heroes? And even if you feel like this would be okay, does it make sense how even with multiple mandatory roles that are balanced for teamplay some can feel more impactful than others?

I'm just trying to help with an understanding of these particular concerns. I'm sure someone will decide to say that Overwatch is a PvP game so it's different, but in this scenario two tanks are mandatory in a team so the game would be balanced appropriately around the damage distribution. The only remaining issue is the impact of the roles within that distribution, which is what we're discussing here.

Hell I'd even argue that it's worse in FFXIV because at least tanks in Overwatch have consistent, active mitigation for their role. You can even protect your team in very meaningful ways that require active decision-making. In FFXIV we just dps for the most part. Most of the role's impact is passive and what we actively spend almost all of our time doing (dps) is weak.