How do we feel about tank damage right now?

[Quor]

People coming into a topic with an attitude and making snide/biting comments because they disagree make them sound threatened. Or maybe some people just don't know how to engage with others when they spend too much time being snarky behind an internet avatar.

Again, look in the mirror. You had plenty of people offering counter arguments in a nice tone that were then ignored with what amounts to "but muh deeps" as a response. When people are presented with reason and fail to see it, then respond with the same bullshit that was just refuted, it's clear that they aren't in this for any kind of "discussion." "Other tanks" have told you what we think. You don't like what we have to say, therefore we are making "snide/biting" comments, because apparently your fee-fees have been hurt. That snide/biting enough for you? Bottom line is this; you don't want discussion, you want moar dps and you want it now, and to hell with the state of the rest of the game. No amount of doublespeak will give truth to this lie you continue to perpetuate, and no amount of projecting your own actions onto others will absolve you of said actions.

The best counterargument anyone has presented thus far was Shurrikhan mentioning how a number of tank mechanics have been dumbed down. While I don't entirely agree with Shurri for a variety of reasons, I get the sentiment. The solution then would be to further differentiate fights by adding more tank-specific mechanics that require tanks to do tank things. The answer is not to turn tanks into "dps, but beefier."

[Rhais]

No real good counter arguments to the OP were offered though. No one with the desire to see an increase in tank dps was presented with "reason". It was just a subjective opinion that tanks don't need to worry about damage because they are tanks.

[BarretOblivion]

It's all relative. Should tanks dps more and bosses given more HP to compensate? Should DPS be given less dps and more dps given to tanks?
Or is it an argument that tanks should do more damage and bosses be made easier and faster to kill as a result?

If the time to kill a boss is the same, is there objective value in the distribution ratio of dps between roles?

The issue comes down to why bring in a 2nd tank? The only reason is the game is forcing one player to basically be there to help the other tank and take over for them at designed periods while utilizing a kit that is hampered compared to a DPS and the only "utility" we bring to help the group is raid wide mitigation that DPS also have, we just have a slightly shorter coodown on them. Honestly I am in agreement with my static tank, SE needs to just remove the 2nd tank slot and give us a 5 dps party comp at this point unless they severly make tanks more important (not just the MT). We have lost an impact on helping clear content, in SB there was a balance between all jobs to deal damage to take down raid bosses to hit group DPS requirements. Now the buffs to all DPS is pushing the importance of tank damage out which hurts tanks. Less people are going to be willing to run tank now because you don't feel impactful if you aren't the MT.

[Kabooa]

I do ask these things as genuine questions because I find this to be an interesting topic.

They want more damage.

They're just trying to appeal from a different angle that doesn't make it seem like it's purely for no other reason than "I want it". Which isn't an invalid reason, it's just not a good one.

The amount of DPS jobs have gained after gearing from 440 to 470 (Though 440 was such a marginal gain, our baseline should be 450-470) has actually been pretty comparable.

While it's difficult to give some good examples (As strats have evolved and gear alone doesn't make up for the difference), we'll nonetheless try an example. The very first Titan kill (an enrage kill at that) has a majority of the DPS sitting around 11.9k, and the tanks at around 7200. The monk is at 12,700 and that number is fairly low for week 1s, as others have pushed 13,000+.

Fast forward to now, full i470, better uptime strats, and we have a Monk at 15,100, and Dancer at 13.700. Tanks at around 8500. Top Speed run currently up.

Monk increase: 18%
Not-"Top 5" increase: 15%
Tank increase: 18%

Catering can obviously change this a bit, but that's why we ranked by speedkill ("Best total DPS of the team") compared to individual rankings ("Dis guy gets the pad"). While one can't truly pad anymore with buffs, one can still give them preferential treatment for mechanics.

So here's the thing.

Another 1000 DPS doesn't help, for those that think there's a problem. As I already said - The next iLevel bump will put things back to where they are now, just because, equivalent scaling on different base values means the higher base value gains the most from the scaling.

The easiest, sanest way to give Tanks better damage contribution that also scales properly is to give them enemy vulnerabilities.

[Edax]

The issue comes down to why bring in a 2nd tank? The only reason is the game is forcing one player to basically be there to help the other tank and take over for them at designed periods while utilizing a kit that is hampered compared to a DPS and the only "utility" we bring to help the group is raid wide mitigation that DPS also have, we just have a slightly shorter coodown on them. Honestly I am in agreement with my static tank, SE needs to just remove the 2nd tank slot and give us a 5 dps party comp at this point unless they severly make tanks more important (not just the MT). We have lost an impact on helping clear content, in SB there was a balance between all jobs to deal damage to take down raid bosses to hit group DPS requirements. Now the buffs to all DPS is pushing the importance of tank damage out which hurts tanks. Less people are going to be willing to run tank now because you don't feel impactful if you aren't the MT.

What would be the point of removing the Off Tank with a DPS? SE isn't arbitrary going to make design the boss fights easier or die faster just because they added a 5th DPS. And more to the point I'm happy being an OT. Fewer tank positions means tanks no longer will be in need on the roulettes and they will have vastly longer queue times which conversely would make me feel far less impactful then I do now.

[BarretOblivion]

They want more damage.

They're just trying to appeal from a different angle that doesn't make it seem like it's purely for no other reason than "I want it". Which isn't an invalid reason, it's just not a good one.

The amount of DPS jobs have gained after gearing from 440 to 470 (Though 440 was such a marginal gain, our baseline should be 450-470) has actually been pretty comparable.

While it's difficult to give some good examples (As strats have evolved and gear alone doesn't make up for the difference), we'll nonetheless try an example. The very first Titan kill (an enrage kill at that) has a majority of the DPS sitting around 11.9k, and the tanks at around 7200. The monk is at 12,700 and that number is fairly low for week 1s, as others have pushed 13,000+.

Fast forward to now, full i470, better uptime strats, and we have a Monk at 15,100, and Dancer at 13.700. Tanks at around 8500. Top Speed run currently up.

Monk increase: 18%
Not-"Top 5" increase: 15%
Tank increase: 18%

Catering can obviously change this a bit, but that's why we ranked by speedkill ("Best total DPS of the team") compared to individual rankings ("Dis guy gets the pad"). While one can't truly pad anymore with buffs, one can still give them preferential treatment for mechanics.

So here's the thing.

Another 1000 DPS doesn't help, for those that think there's a problem. As I already said - The next iLevel bump will put things back to where they are now, just because, equivalent scaling on different base values means the higher base value gains the most from the scaling.

The easiest, sanest way to give Tanks better damage contribution that also scales properly is to give them enemy vulnerabilities.

Tanks aren't going to be sitting at 8500 in titan consistantly unless you get REAAALLY lucky on mechanic line ups. Tank damage varies incredibly baised on timings of mechanics and if they are chosen at certain points for said mechanics (as well as what titan picks for for go-kart). On average you will see Tanks maybe closer to 8k if even 1 mechanic screws them over (which it likely will). For tanks specifically on titan you have to use averages of their clears, not their best because the varience on Titan for tanks is EXTREME.

[LazyC]

They want more damage.

They're just trying to appeal from a different angle that doesn't make it seem like it's purely for no other reason than "I want it". Which isn't an invalid reason, it's just not a good one.

The amount of DPS jobs have gained after gearing from 440 to 470 (Though 440 was such a marginal gain, our baseline should be 450-470) has actually been pretty comparable.

While it's difficult to give some good examples (As strats have evolved and gear alone doesn't make up for the difference), we'll nonetheless try an example. The very first Titan kill (an enrage kill at that) has a majority of the DPS sitting around 11.9k, and the tanks at around 7200. The monk is at 12,700 and that number is fairly low for week 1s, as others have pushed 13,000+.

Fast forward to now, full i470, better uptime strats, and we have a Monk at 15,100, and Dancer at 13.700. Tanks at around 8500. Top Speed run currently up.

Monk increase: 18%
Not-"Top 5" increase: 15%
Tank increase: 18%

Catering can obviously change this a bit, but that's why we ranked by speedkill ("Best total DPS of the team") compared to individual rankings ("Dis guy gets the pad"). While one can't truly pad anymore with buffs, one can still give them preferential treatment for mechanics.

So here's the thing.

Another 1000 DPS doesn't help, for those that think there's a problem. As I already said - The next iLevel bump will put things back to where they are now, just because, equivalent scaling on different base values means the higher base value gains the most from the scaling.

The easiest, sanest way to give Tanks better damage contribution that also scales properly is to give them enemy vulnerabilities.

its good to see the scaling it at least lining up but did you see the post that shows how tanks used to do about 65% of a DPSs damage but now only does 55% for basically no reason? this happens every expansion too btw tanks damage gets gutted but we get nothing back in return. mechanics dont get harder, fight designs stay the same, in fact tanking is as easy as its ever been to the point where all that's left now is damage. i like the tank role, i enjoy the responsibilities that we have but those responsibilities havent changed in years, so all we get to watch as a growing metric is our damage which gets lower and lower every single expansion to the point where white mage is now riding our asses and frankly speaking it feels pretty bad.

Tanks should be bumped back up to doing about 70-75% of a DPS just like it was before because getting weaker for no reason feels pretty bad. Just my 2 cents.

[Deceptus]

If you want to care about dps numbers, play a DPS.

Seriously, tanks are more balanced damage wise than they've ever been.

[Awha]

Personally I wish tanks did more damage, not much maybe 1k-1.5k across the board but it is what it is.

Your damage doesn't matter, what matters is if you fill your damage square is expecting out of you while doing mechanics, again, if you did more damage, bosses would just have more health, they wouldn't end any faster. I am amazed people don't understand this. The obsession with with big numbers in your parser is close to an obsession really.

Problem with mindset if it was not for DPS optimization the tank role would be utterly boring outside of mechanic heavy encounters, and even then once you learn the fight at that point what else is there to strive for? Not like threat management is a thing, or positioning is all that difficult. Personal damage does matter because it is something outside of the fight a tank player can strive to improve an optimize.

Leaving that aside from a sense of progression and character growth it is honestly a crappy feeling having the top end be more or less where we were lack expansion. Just my two cents on the subject. Either way it is a personal desire, that is why I also said it is what it is, because tank balance has never been this close before and it is a personal issue I have, though I do wish war was a tad more engaging to play, but that is another issue.

[Quor]

No real good counter arguments to the OP were offered though. No one with the desire to see an increase in tank dps was presented with "reason". It was just a subjective opinion that tanks don't need to worry about damage because they are tanks.

Several were offered, most notably:
1 - apples and oranges comparison of tank damage against healer/dps damage. Comparing damage across roles is a terrible idea and should not in any way govern balance decisions.
2 - the game, as designed right now, is completely clearable. This means the content we have in game has been designed with the current dps/mitigation/healing issues in mind.
3 - arbitrarily boosting the dps of a given job won't make fights go faster. Tying into point 2, content is built around certain expected dps levels. Boosting dps just means the content hp gets boosted accordingly.
4 - tank balance right now is the best it has ever been. Just small tweaks - if any really - are needed, and at most we're looking at small adjustments to potencies or perhaps duration on some things (example: increasing Blood Weapon duration to 11s to make it so hitting the 5th hit is much easier due to the client-server bullshit that happens with BW). Screwing with this balance, even if it's an equal % increase across all the tanks, will throw that balance out the window, since some tanks will gain more from that boost and others will gain less. Furthermore, as gear gets better (i.e. crit scales better) you're going to see the damage rankings for tanks get shaken up. Throwing a blanket dps % increase into the mix will really screw things up.

Those are the ones I remember, without going back and reading each page of this thread again anyway. Most responses to this have been a variation of "but muh deeps" couched in a bunch of bafflegarble about relative dps numbers, as if that means a damn thing considering how the content is built around it.

Tanks should be bumped back up to doing about 70-75% of a DPS just like it was before because getting weaker for no reason feels pretty bad. Just my 2 cents.

I can understand "it feels bad" but please understand that "it feels bad" is also selfish. Content is clearable well within margins of error right now with things the way they are. Asking for more dps simply because "it feels bad" is not a reason to throw job balance on the line. The jobs are all balanced for the content in the game right now. Fights are being cleared in about the same amount of time as they were in the last raid tier. Without the presence of an outside dps meter, there's no way anyone would know that they are dealing less % damage, because the entirety of the game is designed to be beaten with things the way they are now.

So while yes I do understand "it feels bad," it's ultimately a stupid, selfish reason. Not to say you yourself are stupid, but that this reasoning is stupid. Wanting bigger numbers simply because you want bigger numbers is stupid when it would come at the cost of what is arguably the most balanced the tanks have ever been. Furthermore, as others have noted in this post, comparing across roles is a bad idea in general, and not something that should be used as a metric for balancing damage, so using that as an argument is disingenuous at best and actively malicious at worst.