How do we feel about tank damage right now?

[ShadowNyx3]

This thread is a bit hard to follow but I think I'm seeing the OP's and supporter's points as being that they just want tanks to do a bit more damage so that they feel that the work they're doing is properly valued. I'm not going to comment on what aspects of tanking or healing feel valuable since I very rarely play these roles and do not have an informed opinion, though I am curious to hear opinions of others when framing the overarching question in a particular way:

Does this lack of value have anything to do with the inevitable power creep of the savage tier? Comparing the start of the tier as a fresh 450 to re-clearing things at 470, or at any point in between, do the tanks that want their damage to be higher feel less valuable at the higher item level or have you felt less valuable from the start? In other words, did these feelings of being undervalued come right away or have they come about after many weeks of growing stronger and not seeing the desired feedback?

I am also curious to see how people feel about that considering that an ultimate challenge is on its way, where there is no power creep shy of job changes in future expansions. Would tanks still feel undervalued dealing the damage that they currently do while being asked to perform their role in this highly tuned setting? Of course, there's no way to predict what this challenge may offer but being that it is supposed to be the most involved content presented to the players, I would say it's fair to assume that each role will be pushed to its limit.

I do ask these things as genuine questions because I find this to be an interesting topic.

[Kabooa]

I wanted to see how other tank players felt about tank damage and I find it super interesting that a few people somehow felt threatened about the discussion and decided to run in here barking and biting about it.

I find it super interesting that your feeling of impact is solely based on the leading digit of a third party program.

[xvshanevx]

What do other tank players think about this?

I don't care how much tanks are doing damage wise, especially when compared to other roles. At this point, you are comparing apples to rocks.

On top of that, Yoshi P and his dev team would just tune the health of the mobs/bosses in relation to total raid dps.

Also, that would just be ANOTHER player's damage you would have to worry about when trying to clear fights.

Honestly, doesn't matter, just keep that Tank/DPS stance BS out of the game and I'm happy.

[BarretOblivion]

Does this lack of value have anything to do with the inevitable power creep of the savage tier? Comparing the start of the tier as a fresh 450 to re-clearing things at 470, or at any point in between, do the tanks that want their damage to be higher feel less valuable at the higher item level or have you felt less valuable from the start? In other words, did these feelings of being undervalued come right away or have they come about after many weeks of growing stronger and not seeing the desired feedback?

Tanks feel right now as if we get the least benifit from raid drop than all other roles. Yes, I understand DPS get the most from higher item levels, but right now, Tanks gain the least when it comes to damage and only feel like we are gaining HP. Healers? It makes thier jobs easier getting gear on top of damage and its gotten to the point the arguements in some groups is now priority for drops is going to the HEALERS over the tanks now because don't need drops to do our jobs anymore.

Look, I want both jobs to start rolling for gear when its their turns after DPS, but when you feel 0 difference of an impact between getting 2 pieces of gear as a tank and having 0 then a problem arises. The scaling is also off with Tanks from SB to ShB as our damage should be about 1k higher than what it is currently to be scaled 1-1 to SB. Reason why we lost so much damage? Well every job lost something important to our damage. PLD/WAR lost our "DPS stances" and didn't get the potency compensation to rectify the removal. PLD loses 50 potency every auto attack we deal which adds up quite a bit when your damage in AAs is about 30% during an entire fight. WAR lost not only their 5% damage increase but also they lost their passive Crit buff depending on Beast Guage. DRK lost DA and while Carve & Spit and Bloodspiller got buffs to compensate, their souleater combo remained untouched, the thing we mostly used DA on when we couldn't Bloodspiller or Carve & Spit. If SE goes back and buffs all tanks potencies to compensate for what we lost in SB I don't think any tank would complain at all. The difference between the top Tank DPS (GNB) and lowest DPS (DNC) in a fight with 100% uptime is E2S and the value comes down to about 3-3.5k DPS which is about 70% of the damage a the lowest DPS deals. The issue? Physical ranged DPS are getting buffs (as they need them) likely bringing them up closer to all other jobs. So lets say ranged get about 800 overall DPS increase (I think that's a conservative number). That means Tanks will now be about 4k DPS behind the lowest damaging DPS. At this point the highest damaging tanks are going to be doing 64% of what a DNC will be doing which means the we are going to fall below the 2/3rds ratio of a DPS. Look, 1k DPS increase across the board for Tanks isn't going to 'break' tanks. DPS are still going to be as important.

[Samsta]

It has always been mostly about feeling impactful. Of course, as long as things such as tank busters and forced tank swaps exist, we will be forced to have 1 or 2 tanks in order to clear the content because we're the only jobs with the tools needed to deal with these. But, just like magic TBs are just there to make Dark Mind look good/useful, TBs, mechanics that force tank swaps and such are just there to make having 2 tanks necessary. Delete these and the role becomes completely useless. The only thing that a tank does more than a melee DPS is press defensive CDs at very scripted times in each encounter and voking once/twice in some fights. None of this feels impactful, and they only are because the devs purposely designed these to force tanks into raid groups. On the other hand, our jobs are much easier to play with a lot less complexity and our contribution to damage (the only thing that matters for the group once the minimum mitigation/healing thresholds are met) is very low compared to what it used to be before.

What a weird thing to say. This a game, everything is there to make you do something. Enrage is there to make you do enough dps, damage is there to make you heal. What you are saying is "if they delete everything tanks are supposed to do tanks don't have anything to do anymore" well yeah, if they delete boss hp and make the bosses just follow a set rotation and then they just die after dps are useless. You speak like every other thing is there is is like a force of nature that exists without any intention from the devs. Yeah tankbusters are there to make tanks do something, just like raidwide damage is there to make healers do something. What even is the point of this? Are healers forced into raid groups because damage exists?

[J-Reyno]

I find it super interesting that your feeling of impact is solely based on the leading digit of a third party program.

I'm going to do you a favor and assume that you're genuinely interested in a conversation. So to help, here are some pointers on how to appropriately engage others when you're looking to have a discussion.

1) Do not present your own reductionist version of an argument for the sole purpose of making it sound more trivial without addressing the breadth of the concerns. It gets us nowhere.
2) Read through the thread. I have, in earlier comments, explained why damage numbers make a difference to me. Others players have done the same. If by "I find it super interesting" you mean that you're genuinely interested to know and your comment isn't just copying my words in a poor attempt at snark, then you would have already found the answer by reading.
3) Be careful when assuming things that are not explicitly stated in comments. I am here to discuss damage and I specify that in the topic. You do not know if damage is the only thing that affects how I feel about the impact of a role, only that it is a contributing factor and that it is probably my primary concern. Critical thinking could even lead you to believe that I'm here to discuss damage specifically because it's the easiest adjustment that can be made to tanks. And to chuck a little of #2 in here, if you'd read previous comments you might even see that I've alluded to other elements that tanks lack which could have made them impactful. Extra credit if you find that.

I'm going to guess that ultimately the topic at hand doesn't matter to you and you feel like the damage values of tanks is unimportant or that it's fine where it is. I doubt you'll be able to understand that littering a thread with snark about a topic with which you've already stated your disagreement accomplishes nothing and is childish. It doesn't sound like you have much else to contribute besides re-stating your difference of opinion, but I'm sure you'll find new and "clever" ways to do that all the same. Please look forward to it, everyone.

[CrimsonGunner]

nonsense

you really not worth commenting but i will and it will be my last here cause what you are doing is the actual trolling and i am done dealing with your nonsense.

your entire topic was and still is comparing tank dps to the other classes (healers and dps), not only that but even before my post ,you and others compared the tanks dps to the other roles.
even before me, there were those that told you that tanks dps isn't that important cause the true value and impact of a tank doesn't come from dps.
if the comparison was only between healer dps and tanks dps it would make somewhat sense to me and not that big issue but it wasn't and dragged to comparing to the dps classes(which if it was just about healers wouldn't need to be relevant) even though you didn't said it but it came to the point of actual saying tanks are like dps. all that before my post that you so called claimed had derailed the topic.

if tanks dps was low to actually interfere with content it could have been just to up their damage.
if healers truly do more dps then tanks which still isn't the case but as i said before it can be somewhat a legitimate concern since in mmo tanks dps is higher then the support/healer and as a healer you should already know that healers don't have enough healing moments and have nothing to do during healing downtime except dps also that most healer community want to do more then just spam broil/malefic/glare (and yes WHM compare to the other healers deal more dps but as a healer you should have known that).

but your entire complain to why up tanks dps is only cause of the numbers shown in some log aren't to your liking.
dps disparity between the roles as said is irreverent and i definitely never derailed the thread cause this topic as you said is to up tank dps cause the numbers aren't big enough for you and others compare to healers and it being too low compare to dps.

as i said in that comment i had enough since not only the comparisons between roles is irrelevant but its went as far as comparing and crying they aren't at dps classes damage level. tanks contribute more to party then just mere dps numbers.
like another user said its comparing apples to rocks and all your explanations to up dps is basically to feel macho at the logs when tank contribute is more then just dps numbers.

your topic wasn't a matter of "whats the big deal to up tanks by 1k" as you try to make it out to be but it actually the matter which you still argue is actually to up dps cause some numbers in some log look too close compare to healers and started spiraling about comparing and bringing it up to dps class level just to feel rewarded.
so claiming that i was "trolling" in intentional effort to derail the conversations not only rude and insulting but its shows how much your willing to bend logic,twist people posts and even discredit people just to justify your precious dps fetish.

[Kabooa]

I'm going to do you a favor and assume that you're genuinely interested in a conversation. So to help, here are some pointers on how to appropriately engage others when you're looking to have a discussion.

Follow your own advice.

People pushing back against it isn't being "threatened", it's understanding that each role has innate weaknesses that are not designed flaws.

Tanks dealing significantly less damage than DPS isn't a design flaw. Healers being able to keep up with Tanks isn't a design flaw.

Tacking on an arbitrary number for the sake of your own satisfaction ultimately doesn't fix the non-problem that you're presented with, seeing as if we keep the same scaling we have now, we'll just be back here six months from now when the iLevel jumps to 500 even with a "every GCD action gets +40 potency" bandaid fix on it.

This is just the new "Accessories should have strength", "Accessories should scale the same as others", "Stance shouldn't have a damage penalty" thread that we've seen over and over again ad nausem.

You want to do more damage, and damn whatever else has to change for it.

If you get your free 1000 DPS here, I can't wait to see what it'll be tomorrow.

[Edax]

It's all relative. Should tanks dps more and bosses given more HP to compensate? Should DPS be given less dps and more dps given to tanks?
Or is it an argument that tanks should do more damage and bosses be made easier and faster to kill as a result?

If the time to kill a boss is the same, is there objective value in the distribution ratio of dps between roles?

[J-Reyno]

Follow your own advice.

People pushing back against it isn't being "threatened", it's understanding that each role has innate weaknesses that are not designed flaws.

People coming into a topic with an attitude and making snide/biting comments because they disagree make them sound threatened. Or maybe some people just don't know how to engage with others when they spend too much time being snarky behind an internet avatar.

On the other hand, our jobs are much easier to play with a lot less complexity and our contribution to damage (the only thing that matters for the group once the minimum mitigation/healing thresholds are met) is very low compared to what it used to be before.

Missed this, and I really identify with this statement. I do like the change to tank/dps stance but if tank is just going to spend 99% of its time doing a damage rotation while doing a hair more damage than healers, or potentially even LESS damage, while having little in the way of job mechanics/utility that make the role feel powerful? Sure the tank is necessary but it's like, if I'm going to do the damage of a support role then where's my partywide mitigation that can prevent aoe damage entirely? There's something lacking about the impact of the role being passive damage reduction and pressing the occasional mitigation skill. At least give me my damage back.