Reimbursement for Lost Tomes due to Wrongful use of Kick

[Iscah]

I don't know the full story of what's going on here, but I have one suggestion if such vote kicks are a concern:

Don't roll on items you don't need. Vote kicks cannot be commenced when rolling on items.

That's not helpful advice, that's a way for trolls to ensure a party can't get rid of them when they deserve to be kicked. Don't encourage people to do it.

Also, if a party is determined to kick someone, they'll wait.

[Alklios]

Gonna ask one more time for folk to solely (per the forum rules) discuss, debate and pick apart the discussion title:
"Reimbursement for Lost Tomes due to Wrongful use of Kick"



Food for thought for others that want to discuss the other off-topic points posted on another thread:

- An amount of highly active posters and players I can count on my fingers is not representative of the whole population. Naturally incidences of this problem will be far lessened for the behavior suggested that placates the aggressor. Perform a few google searches to see how rampant the kick system abuse is.
- If gross LFG toxicity is not considered in spite of the individual, perform the simple experiment of observing a player new to Labyrinth of the Ancients step on a pedastal in the Atomos fight and see how quickly they get lambasted or kicked.
- This is the internet with broadly varying views. Taking it one step further to troll or deny someone work they've done with you is beyond reasonable. No matter how much it burns with fiery determination in the heart to seek vengeance against someone for taking a different stance than you, they don't deserve to be cut out of a reward you worked for together. Harassment is harassment. There is no ambiguity. I've seen it painted 1000 colors with my 5%, 1 in 20 some-odd retention rates of my friends I invite to play this game.

[Kurando]

"Reimbursement for Lost Tomes due to Wrongful use of Kick"

And as raised, you need to have earned the reward to have lost it to begin with. You didn't finish the duty regardless of the circumstances, so you didn't have anything to lose thus there is nothing to refund. You were rewarded for the work you did up to the point of kick, so any tomes from previous bosses, loot drops, gil etc, because that's all you earned and deserved.

"Wrongful use of kick" also doesn't exist unless a GM has proven otherwise. Kick is available for any reason and no one has any obligation to explain it to the person who is kicked. The GM will decide if you or whoever is the victim or not, otherwise anyone could just cry wolf whenever they wanted.

[Ilyrian]

You need to learn how to pick your battles.

This is the best advice in the thread.

[Alklios]

"Reimbursement for Lost Tomes due to Wrongful use of Kick"

And as raised, you need to have earned the reward to have lost it to begin with. You didn't finish the duty regardless of the circumstances, so you didn't have anything to lose thus there is nothing to refund. You were rewarded for the work you did up to the point of kick, so any tomes from previous bosses, loot drops, gil etc, because that's all you earned and deserved.

"Wrongful use of kick" also doesn't exist unless a GM has proven otherwise. Kick is available for any reason and no one has any obligation to explain it to the person who is kicked. The GM will decide if you or whoever is the victim or not, otherwise anyone could just cry wolf whenever they wanted.

We still don't get the tomes earned for bosses already completed as even those are stripped after a vote kick.

I think a good compromise would be to at minimal keep tomes earned from bosses completed so it doesn't feel as miserable having to climb back on top of a rock being rewarded 0.

To your latter statement, it's agreed fully which is why in my first post I said that it would be naturally GM's discretion, even -after- they've decided foul play against you. IDK why so many people think I was asking for immediate reimbursement upon clicking the report button.


You also helped me think of something to suggest in another thread: Lowering the completion bonus and raising base tomes awarded so we can grind out tomes easier earlier in week and encourage us to do other roulettes that don't pale in comparison to phanta/goetia tomes. Thank you for your input.

[Lambdafish]

We still don't get the tomes earned for bosses already completed as even those are stripped after a vote kick.

This is not true. Any items that you get in a dungeon (including currency) are put into your inventory, they aren't tied to the duty.

As for the rest of the thread, you sound extremely entitled. You had a bad dungeon run, get over it, everyone had had bad dungeon runs with crappy people, and this may result in things getting toxic. You lost maybe 20 minutes of your life and still gained the rewards for the part of the dungeon that you did. Move on and hope for better parties. Tomestones aren't hard to get, do a hunt train or some maps to supplement your roulettes, and you will see how easy tomes are to get.

Essentially this has blown up into a 7-page thread over a tantrum.

[HyoMinPark]

Gonna ask one more time for folk to solely (per the forum rules) discuss, debate and pick apart the discussion title:
"Reimbursement for Lost Tomes due to Wrongful use of Kick"

People have been discussing that. They disagree with your proposal, and have already listed the reasons why. You didn’t earn anything; there is nothing to reimburse. Implementing this system has room for abuse, which players have also outlined for you. If you are of the mind that people wouldn’t abuse it, you seriously underestimate how much human beings will cut corners and take the path of least resistance when it comes to things.

- An amount of highly active posters and players I can count on my fingers is not representative of the whole population. Naturally incidences of this problem will be far lessened for the behavior suggested that placates the aggressor. Perform a few google searches to see how rampant the kick system abuse is.

These are all anecdotes at the end of the day. You want to dismiss our anecdotes; we can easily dismiss the others that display this “rampant” abuse. Most are one-sided stories (much like yours) that no one aside from a GM can confirm or deny. That said, there have actually been quite a few threads on this very forum where someone came forth to cry about “vote kick abuse”—until the parties that dismissed them also appeared with chat log evidence that the poster wasn’t as innocent as they wanted to initially claim. So you should understand the hesitancy of some to take your dismissal as true abuse—especially when you don’t even provide any details of what occurred.

- If gross LFG toxicity is not considered in spite of the individual, perform the simple experiment of observing a player new to Labyrinth of the Ancients step on a pedastal in the Atomos fight and see how quickly they get lambasted or kicked.

Posting an anecdote here, but I’ve been playing this game for 4 years. I’ve never seen anyone kicked in LotA short of a disconnection—especially now where people just zergfest the content. At most, someone will say in Alliance chat, “B, pads please”. They rarely ever call a person out by name—they address the entire alliance. Which makes sense, since the pads are a 4-person job.

- This is the internet with broadly varying views. Taking it one step further to troll or deny someone work they've done with you is beyond reasonable. No matter how much it burns with fiery determination in the heart to seek vengeance against someone for taking a different stance than you, they don't deserve to be cut out of a reward you worked for together. Harassment is harassment. There is no ambiguity. I've seen it painted 1000 colors with my 5%, 1 in 20 some-odd retention rates of my friends I invite to play this game.

There is ambiguity when you don’t provide details of your own kick, yet continue to insist that it was “wrongful” AND use it as the primary defense for your proposal. As for the reward, you did not earn anything because you did not complete the duty. That is how rewards are given in this game—not for every boss, not halfway through the content. At the end upon duty completion.

This is not true. Any items that you get in a dungeon (including currency) are put into your inventory, they aren't tied to the duty.

You will earn and retain the gear drops. Tomestone rewards are not rewarded until you beat the final boss. If you are kicked prior to completing the dungeon, you do not earn the rewards.

You also helped me think of something to suggest in another thread: Lowering the completion bonus and raising base tomes awarded so we can grind out tomes easier earlier in week and encourage us to do other roulettes that don't pale in comparison to phanta/goetia tomes. Thank you for your input.

On this, other roulettes are more beneficial if one is leveling. But earning capped tomestones every week just requires one Expert Roulette for 5 days. Expert Roulette gives 90 capped tomes total—multiply by 5, and you have 450 tomes. Easy earnings; takes less than an hour each day. In addition, you can join Hunt trains that will cap you extremely fast. We really don’t need tomes to be any easier to obtain.

[Lambdafish]

You will earn and retain the gear drops. Tomestone rewards are not rewarded until you beat the final boss. If you are kicked prior to completing the dungeon, you do not earn the rewards.

Having to jog my memory... the other bosses must drop goetia then? I know that all bosses in an expert roulette drop at least something.

[HyoMinPark]

Having to jog my memory... the other bosses must drop goetia then? I know that all bosses in an expert roulette drop at least something.

The bosses will say that you “earned” X amount of tomes, but you don’t actually get them until you complete the dungeon. I know that this applies for capped tomestones. I don’t know if uncapped ones fall in the same category because I’m always capped on them, but I’d wager they function the same.

[Alklios]

@Hyominpark.

I mentioned increasing base tomes and lowering completion bonus to equalize out 90 tomes at end of day but make it easier to grind out tomes earlier in a day. The problem is alot of players just can't have a 30 minute opening each and every day, so having a 2-3 spontaneous window to grind out tomes is nice. At 40 tomes a dungeon instead of say 60 (with completion bonus lowered to 30) this is -way-more difficult to achieve cap.

This isn't the thread to to discuss my takeaway from anecdotes about behaviors, if I do that it will be to PMs to better explain situations. Otherwise it's considered derailing from topic of thread title. Yes, a GM decides misbehavior. It is why I'm not bothering posting any screenshots of former abuse. Validation from players will do nothing for me or this thread. I don't need people agreeing with me or disagreeing with me if I was in wrong or right. I'm needing developer consideration for a suggestion that a -GM- thought was a good idea to suggest here which they will get by reading innately.

As for being denied a completion bonus and not receiving rewards, I'll agree to disagree. Most services in the real world that take your money will reimburse you for people cheating you out of reward or 'payment' for a service by either real currency as in insurance agencies, or virtual currency in video games. There's some servers of mmos that my donation items have gotten intervened and stolen by the delivery and all a GM has to do is track that item code, remove it from the game, ban the player and give me back the item. It's not a farfetched concept.

I won't get an end game bonus because I didn't manage to complete the dungeon -because- players denied me it. GM's can determine that fault.
I brought up my WoW experience by comparison to explain another experience where a player cheated me out of progress (in addition to destroying all my gear selling it), and I was reimbursed. I didn't participate in the arena season that week, but the service providers understood that 100%. My progression was restored because I pay money for a service and other players abused a feature to wall me off from it. Rhetoric: I don't deserve that week of conquest which is paramount to maintaining my Arena Rank in Cataclysm BECAUSE I couldn't complete it? Blizzard seemed to think otherwise and compensated. Square hasn't refused this, they simply haven't considered it. It's not my goal to QQ about 1 company and not the other. A GM said it's never been suggested and so here I am.

To those that spoke you can just simply re-q, consider the common situation I already detailed: DPS in queue for near close to half hour for an alliance raid that is new in 5.X patch. Few people memorized the fights, there's alot of wipes. People start becoming irate, maybe dps checks aren't met. Fingers pointed, boom booted. Near 1/2 hour Queue and probably 1 hour progress lost. Full time jobs or full time with children aren't going to have a schedule so forgiving for that, and thus leads to huge unsubbing and loss of $$$ for Square, which is their goal.

I can't think of a solution yet for lost gear and a thread may be made if it comes to mind, but the Alliance Raid coin would be nice to obtain IF GM finds foul play and you didn't do anything to instigate it. This isn't a problem for me specifically as I only roll healer/tank.