How do we feel about tank damage right now?

[Rufalus]

We are a poor man version of dps right now and its not good.
We have a lot less dmg than dps and we are a lot simplier and boring to play as well.
No wonder why tanks are still in need despite 1 job more to play.

I'd still rather mmos don't use roles. So every job is basically a damage dealer with a bit of support and self sustain. If you design fights to need dedicated tanks and healers then those roles are the most homogeneous with their kits tuned to mitigate the scripted high tank damage and undo raidwide damage. And those roles are always less popular than dps due to less fun or higher stress/responsibility so it makes the role-based duty queues take longer to fill. Also I don't like how a dedicated healer role with huge heal power turns pvp into a healer vs everyone tug of war trying to stop them from undoing all of the damage, and if the healer dies then their team is so vulnerable without them; it's too much power/responsibility focused into one role. I think xiv-style raids would still be mostly the same in a game without roles, you still have dps checks and basically all of the movement mechanics, just without scripted tankbusters on a single enmity target and less unavoidable raidwide damage.

[Nedkel]

stuff

Its pretty clearly you have not read or not understood OP concerns.
I will demonstrate to you something, look at this:


First numbers are coming from the savage raids in this expansion on this patch and second numbers are coming from savage raid from the patch before shadowbringers. These numbers represent the performance of all jobs in terms of pure DPS relative to all jobs.
You could see, tanks DPS performance dropped from 63-66% to 52-55%, its a 17% drop in performance in comparison to what we had back in the stormblood.
That means we lost on the influence, before a good tank would deal more dps than a bad DPS, and now even a good tank cannot surpass a bad DPS, and its really silly, especially if you realize that healers could deal almost as much dmg as tanks, when before they were nowhere near that level...
Tanks now are weaker than they were in the previous expansion and this is a hard and sad fact.

Also regarding team full of tanks.
No, if tanks were dealing 60-70% of damage that DPS do, you would still get only 1 tank, because deffensive bonuses are only valuable on one guy from the whole party, you dont need anymore tank than one, boss attack only one guy and cast tank busters only on one guy. Anything excessive in the deffensive department is a waste, i could guarantee you if team had any choice to which class should they take, they would take only 1 tank and not two like we have right now.

[Samsta]

Its pretty clearly you have not read or not understood OP concerns.
I will demonstrate to you something, look at this:


First numbers are coming from the savage raids in this expansion on this patch and second numbers are coming from savage raid from the patch before shadowbringers. These numbers represent the performance of all jobs in terms of pure DPS relative to all jobs.
You could see, tanks DPS performance dropped from 63-66% to 52-55%, its a 17% drop in performance in comparison to what we had back in the stormblood.
That means we lost on the influence, before a good tank would deal more dps than a bad DPS, and now even a good tank cannot surpass a bad DPS, and its really silly, especially if you realize that healers could deal almost as much dmg as tanks, when before they were nowhere near that level...
Tanks now are weaker than they were in the previous expansion and this is a hard and sad fact.

Also regarding team full of tanks.
No, if tanks were dealing 60-70% of damage that DPS do, you would still get only 1 tank, because deffensive bonuses are only valuable on one guy from the whole party, you dont need anymore tank than one, boss attack only one guy and cast tank busters only on one guy. Anything excessive in the deffensive department is a waste, i could guarantee you if team had any choice to which class should they take, they would take only 1 tank and not two like we have right now.

1 tank only? Let's see

E1S: tank vice and virtue would kill 1 dps, spear of paradise would have to be invulned, not all tanks can invuln every spear and dps would need to tank the add.
E2S: Every tankbuster would kill 1 dps.
E3S:Boss would autoattack dps through the whole fight, it would be hell, every tankbuster must be invulned, not possible, flare marker would kill someone during stormy horizon, the big hit during tsunami 2 would kill someone, other flare marker before black smokers would kill someone, and black smokers would kill someone (unless the healers invests like everything to heal him)
E4S: Every tankbuster needs to be invulned, not possible, earthen anguish would kill 1 dps 3 times during the fight, megalith would kill 1 dps/the tank 3 times the fight

It turns out 2 tanks are kinda needed.

[Xtrasweettea]

1 tank only? Let's see

E1S: tank vice and virtue would kill 1 dps, spear of paradise would have to be invulned, not all tanks can invuln every spear and dps would need to tank the add.
E2S: Every tankbuster would kill 1 dps.
E3S:Boss would autoattack dps through the whole fight, it would be hell, every tankbuster must be invulned, not possible, flare marker would kill someone during stormy horizon, the big hit during tsunami 2 would kill someone, other flare marker before black smokers would kill someone, and black smokers would kill someone (unless the healers invests like everything to heal him)
E4S: Every tankbuster needs to be invulned, not possible, earthen anguish would kill 1 dps 3 times during the fight, megalith would kill 1 dps/the tank 3 times the fight

It turns out 2 tanks are kinda needed.

Regardless if you need two tanks or can get away with one ("Skip Soar" anyone?), it doesn't lessen Nedkel's point. Nedkel's point was a counter to Gun's speculation that having same damage as a DPS would make it to where no one would bring DPS and only tanks since they can mitigate damage better than DPS. Nedkel is correct that even if tank damage was close, but not equal to DPS, we still wouldn't have a full party of tanks since it would be a mitigation waste.

Even the raids you pointed out still meets Nedkel's point. These are all targeting one person or at most, two people. It just happens that due to the frequency and strength of each of these enemy actions, one tank cannot currently handle the full load. Adding more tanks doesn't negate the single target tankbuster more.

Nedkel is correct that if possible, people would drop the second tank for another DPS. If the same amount of resources from the healers and tank could allow the swap, it will happen. Having an extra +45% damage to the raid is a considerable increase.

[BarretOblivion]

1 tank only? Let's see

E1S: tank vice and virtue would kill 1 dps, spear of paradise would have to be invulned, not all tanks can invuln every spear and dps would need to tank the add.
E2S: Every tankbuster would kill 1 dps.
E3S:Boss would autoattack dps through the whole fight, it would be hell, every tankbuster must be invulned, not possible, flare marker would kill someone during stormy horizon, the big hit during tsunami 2 would kill someone, other flare marker before black smokers would kill someone, and black smokers would kill someone (unless the healers invests like everything to heal him)
E4S: Every tankbuster needs to be invulned, not possible, earthen anguish would kill 1 dps 3 times during the fight, megalith would kill 1 dps/the tank 3 times the fight

It turns out 2 tanks are kinda needed.

You need to read the data. The main point is that tanks lost about 17% damage baised off 1 to 1 scaling. There two tanks so as a group we lost about 963 damage each which lets round to a total of 2k group dps. This usually means every fight we lost the wiggle room of 1 death in each fight and dps have to make up that 2k dps hole

[Kabooa]

Well, now I wished they didn't change accessories. At least then you could pretend it wasn't about number envy and could claim it was about fairness.

[FallenWings]

In a world where tanks do the same damage as DPS you simply balance it by exemplifying the idea of rDPS.

DPS would bring the ability to create openings or weaknesses by either striking at certain boss parts causing the boss to take X% more damage or even just bringing more powerful buffs.

i.e
Tank does 100
DPS does 100 but brings party wides buffs or mechanics to enable more damage. (Let's say 100 more RDPS each)

A standard team of 2 tanks and 4 dps would do (100*2) + (200*4) = 1000 rdps

As opposed to a team of 6 tanks which would just be 100*6 = 600 rdps.

40% raid less DPS for 4 more unnecessarily durable players and far more limited LB generation? (More if we count role bonuses)
Yeah this would only be viable for severely outdated content. *cough* BLUE MAGE REASONING *cough*

This gives DPS a role unique mechanic of hugely boosting RDPS and then you just balance content around that so that non-standard comps are unviable. This then allows each tank to have equal agency to each DPS player in contributing to winning the fight by defeating the boss. All that happens is that now DPS are responsible for new forced DPS mechanics or RDPS much like how tanks are responsible for forced tank mechanics now.

[Kabooa]

In a world where tanks do the same damage as DPS you simply balance it by exemplifying the idea of rDPS.

Why would you give that to DPS and not the tanks?

Enemy vulnerabilities are traditionally the realm of tanks because it gives them meaningful damage contribution to parties without letting them be nearly invincible by comparison along with competitive damage?

[Argyle_Darkheart]

Tank's DPS contribution is noticeably lower than it was in previous expansions, and it feels bad, frankly.

[Quor]

lets just get it over with.
create a thread that asks SE to create an all round job that can be tank with the same dps as the other dps jobs with a healer kit and be done with this.

Agreed. Tanks are not dps are not healers. The "play" of a tank is the know the fight like the back of your hand so you don't wipe people and enable the dps and healers to do their jobs as easily as possible. Yes, once you learn a fight you're pretty much done as a tank, but you need to know and execute that fight flawlessly or else the entire raid suffers. In other words you do the mechanics flawlessly as a tank or everyone very likely will die.

You need to read the data. The main point is that tanks lost about 17% damage baised off 1 to 1 scaling. There two tanks so as a group we lost about 963 damage each which lets round to a total of 2k group dps. This usually means every fight we lost the wiggle room of 1 death in each fight and dps have to make up that 2k dps hole

That chart is comparing the final raid of the last tier with the current raid of this tier. What are the numbers of current savage with Deltascape savage?