Tactful ways to inform people that they're playing badly?

[MrKusakabe]

Way I see it if the group passes the vote the overall the voting majority felt as if the person in question was a problem so everyone is better off, [...]

Unfortunately, it is not how it works. If some player is so bad that everyone agrees, why did no one of the other party members instigated it? See this situation: You have a group of 8 and one person is visibly worse, but not outright the reason the dungeon is becoming a desaster. I would not kick this person. Now, since we all have different thresholds and characteristical attitudes as invidiual players, one person gets annoyed for, let's say, a healer only healing. The window pops up, no word has been said. What will happen now?

In my experience, when the window pops up, I am often surprised by it. Check the name, look in the party member list who that is. Ah, the Dancer. What did he do? Mh, I saw him doing this stuff. Was it so bad? I don't think so. (>NO).
Other players: "Get that window out of my face >YES" or "If someone summons a votekick, there must be something wrong. I have no proof, but whatever >YES" or even "Phew, it is not me. I am not good either, but who cares? >YES".

One we had an AFK stopping to move without disconnecting in Copperbell Hard and I forgot I was the team leader and asked if we wanted to wait until going for a replacement and we all agreed. We waited for 7 minutes - all strangers! - and then removed her. So there is the will to catch up failures and mistakes, even it makes the run slower (here we lost 7 minutes if she would have come back!), but I think it has to be conveyed properly. If a tank causes mad beef versus a supposedly bad player, you have the mindgame coming into play: "He will leave. Replacing a tank takes ages. So we rather accept to kick without evidence". Or what if the slacker is a part of a group that will remove you after you summoned the votekick, as sort of revenge?

The whole "kickvote" story is so multilayered and in very rare cases based on objectivity, as sad that is.

Sincerely,

[Dogempire]

Out of curiosity, who are we to say if an standard is unrealistic, everyone has different standards. I do think it is safe to assume that most share the same end goal when running content which is to clear it, but is a goal itself a standard, or should it even be considered one? Do not get me wrong we can not agree with the view and when that happens people should leave or try to remove the element they do not agree with.

Also sorry English is not my native tongue

Unfortunately the only standard that you can ever expect from pugs is that they were competent enough to clear the content before the dungeon you're in, which is quite an easy standard considering that healers only need to heal to clear content, tanks only need to hold aggro and don't even need a good rotation to do so, and dps only need to deal damage, doesn't matter how much, just damage, and obviously on top of that you need to be able to do mechanics or find a party good enough to carry you, neither of which is too hard.

[Nedkel]

Its definitely exaggerated. Also, its people having unrealistic standards for PUG groups. A lot of the examples of "bad" players I'm seeing bandied about are just players who, either intentionally or unintentionally, are not working at optimal efficiency.

But a healer who doesn't use DPS skills every possible chance during healing downtime, but the group all lives and the dungeon gets cleared, is not a bad player and they're not wasting your time. They aren't treating the dungeon like a savage run, yeah. But they kept you alive, the bosses died. It was fine.

The way some people are talking here, there doesn't seem to be a middle ground between "bad" and "optimal", but in reality there very much is one. If you *really* can't bear not telling them how you think they can improve, be kind about it and don't assume you know what they do or do not understand without asking them first. But overall, some people just need to chill.

Speaking about unrealistic approach to pugs.
You would be pretty surprised how many many many many many players are simply not aoeing in dungeons or how many many many healers are using only GCD heals to heal your tank, going oom quickly and just standing there waiting for regen.
A ton of guys get into the game, buy jump potions and just use like 6 skills at best, it was a plague when the expansion started to the point where i refused to do duties.
Because of that i dont run parser anymore, because seeing dps doing less dps than my tank in dungeons just makes me sick.

[Awha]

The whole "kickvote" story is so multilayered and in very rare cases based on objectivity, as sad that is.

Thing is if the vote outcome can arguably be viewed as objectivity a fact of the majority's desire. Everything else is either an assumption or nor necessary. No matter the reason for the vote the outcome is fact in my opinion, but that does not inherently mean it was personal or an attack which is how I think a lot of people view being removed. Maybe it is because I am a foreigner but if people do not want to be around me I do not assume off the bat it is because they personally hate me or something just that it was their personal preference to not be around me. I can respect that, and by no means would I want to be part of a group to grit and bare my presence since that leads to resentment and once resentment comes into play then actions may become personal.

Unfortunately the only standard that you can ever expect from pugs is that they were competent enough to clear the content before the dungeon you're in, which is quite an easy standard considering that healers only need to heal to clear content, tanks only need to hold aggro and don't even need a good rotation to do so, and dps only need to deal damage, doesn't matter how much, just damage, and obviously on top of that you need to be able to do mechanics or find a party good enough to carry you, neither of which is too hard.

I know I am an odd ball but I do not think it is our place to say what one reasonably should expect from a player, that is why I am support using the vote feature more instead of holding everything in out of being kind or showing tolerance.

I have only been removed oncr from a dungeon and that was because I was skipping mobs when possible, and instead of adapting to my groups desires I tried to force them into my own. At that point I learned i was better off just leaving instead of trying to change the play style of the group.

Overall I guess I find it strange that many have the bar set to mere completion of content and while I find it odd if I ran into a group that was okay with people doing the bare minimum I would either kindly ask them to remove me so I may requeue or leave. Since for me personally completion is my goal but not my standard. Hope that makes sense, I do see where you are coming from and I probably just being ridged in my view.

[Annabellechu]

I don't know, I still feel like kicking someone for being bad is still a pretty bad reason, why do you think it's not listed in the kick reasons? That's coming from a new player.

People are free to use party finder and make their own group, they're also free to go with their friends. Why would you ruin 1 person experience because you're lazy / without friends? Listen, I'm not saying that this 1 person that's not performing how you want is "protected" or anything. I'm just saying, what if it's this person first time in the dungeon, what if this person just doesn't know how their character works, is it really that hard to at least try and say "hey healer, you know you're spamming heal on yourself" for example. If they react badly, if they don't listen then yeah I get it and it's understandable.

Put yourself in their place, they're maybe there for a MSQ quest, maybe sidequest and they just want to clear. No one told them they had to be prepared and maybe they've been waiting for 30m and you'll just kick them cause they're not good enough for your taste without even trying, you know you can even say "this dungeon is really hard you should study it first (read about it)" and not look like an asshole.

You on the other hand you knew exactly what you were signing up for. A chance for new / bad people because you don't have anyone else to play with.

[SerLuke]

Looking at it from the wrong angle. How much time will be wasted by the noob in the next several hundred runs they join because everyone refuses to do anything about it?

You are missing the point, you are trying to make it look like you are doing a noble thing by kicking someone from a casual dungeon run because they don’t meet your standards in order to make a run go a couple minutes faster or leaving and giving oneself a 30 minute penalty without saying anything because they think it will magically make someone play better in the long term.

Let’s be honest here shall we? You don’t care if that player improves or not you just want to have quick, fast runs, you are trying to make yourself look noble in a vain attempt to disguise your own selfishness you would rather all players that don’t meet your standards quit if they don’t improve in a timeframe that is acceptable to you.

[Awha]

I don't know, I still feel like kicking someone for being bad is still a pretty bad reason, why do you think it's not listed in the kick reasons? That's coming from a new player.

People are free to use party finder and make their own group, they're also free to go with their friends. Why would you ruin 1 person experience because you're lazy / without friends? Listen, I'm not saying that this 1 person that's not performing how you want is "protected" or anything. I'm just saying, what if it's this person first time in the dungeon, what if this person just doesn't know how their character works, is it really that hard to at least try and say "hey healer, you know you're spamming heal on yourself" for example. If they react badly, if they don't listen then yeah I get it and it's understandable.

Put yourself in their place, they're maybe there for a MSQ quest, maybe sidequest and they just want to clear. No one told them they had to be prepared and maybe they've been waiting for 30m and you'll just kick them cause they're not good enough for your taste without even trying, you know you can even say "this dungeon is really hard you should study it first (read about it)" and not look like an asshole.

You on the other hand you knew exactly what you were signing up for. A chance for new / bad people because you don't have anyone else to play with.

While still debated in this game difference of play style appears to be a valid reason for removal even if it is not listed, and being as how often I have been part of groups that remove players a I tend to think SE is okay with it.

If I may ask why is using the party finder playing with friends only a one way street? This is why I am a favor of people using the vote kick feature more, it is a binary metric, did the vote pass or fail. Nothing else matters since that outcome of the vote is not based on assumptions or feelings. I guess what I am saying is I do not understand why people make it personal, because I tend to think most people who use the vote kick feature are not doing it out of malice they simply do not want to play with the person, and if it passes no matter the reasons as to why the vote passed it stands to reason if it passed the voting majority also did not want to play the person.

You are missing the point, you are trying to make it look like you are doing a noble thing by kicking someone from a casual dungeon run because they don’t meet your standards in order to make a run go a couple minutes faster or leaving and giving oneself a 30 minute penalty without saying anything because they think it will magically make someone play better in the long term.

Let’s be honest here shall we? You don’t care if that player improves or not you just want to have quick, fast runs, you are trying to make yourself look noble in a vain attempt to disguise your own selfishness you would rather all players that don’t meet your standards quit if they don’t improve in a timeframe that is acceptable to you.

Is that a bad thing though if someone wants quick and easy runs?

[SerLuke]

Is that a bad thing though if someone wants quick and easy runs?

It’s not a bad thing to want that, it becomes bad when someone has to remove someone newer or less skilled than they are to get that.

[Awha]

It’s not a bad thing to want that, it becomes bad when someone has to remove someone newer or less skilled than they are to get that.

Why is bad if the vote is successful? Should the minority in the group get special treatment because they are new or less skilled? Should we take what the say a face value? Are they really new or are they using it that a means to cover up their mistakes? Being removed from the group is not bad, just means the group was not meant for that person. Most reasons I have seen for why it is bad are based off a view that because someone is new or less skilled they should be get special treatment and somehow their experience has more value over the group as a whole.

[SerLuke]

Why is bad if the vote is successful? Should the minority in the group get special treatment because they are new or less skilled? Should we take what the say a face value? Are they really new or are they using it that a means to cover up their mistakes? Being removed from the group is not bad, just means the group was not meant for that person. Most reasons I have seen for why it is bad are based off a view that because someone is new or less skilled they should be get special treatment and somehow their experience has more value over the group as a whole.

Because unless someone is actually preventing the completion of the run and refusing to take advice that would allow them to compete it I don’t think they should be removed from content, and even if it takes them a few tries to learn the mechs of a boss battle that’s totally fine too as long as they are communicating and trying.

For example, I’m trying to get all jobs to 80 for my amaro mount, I’ve been in a lot, and I mean a lot of parties where the tank could pull large but they don’t, would I love to have big pulls and be done a bit faster? Sure, but the thought to remove them has never crossed my mind, I’m not more important or more significant than they are so I just deal with it and take a few minutes longer to complete the duty.