Monk needs to be nerfed hard. Change my mind.

[monk-dps]

What's also great is that you dont have to be good at MNK to be good at MNK.
The kit is just way to easy compared to the other DPS kits available.
Faceroll = DAMAGE
No skill required.
Press 1 of 3 buttons every so often and you'll be top DPS no matter what you do.
What a nicely designed Job.

Eh.. I'mma call a no on that ghost rider. Sorry, but I still see dancers killing bad monks all the time so no. You NEED to be good to be good on monk. not any joe brown can just press buttons and be top dps. ( Not unless noone else is pressing anything. Monk is not that easy to play. It's easy for a nonstupid person but yeah no. ) I dissagree with that statement hardcore. I agree with the other person, we should fix the other classes before we kill monks. The answer isn't to just nerf one class while everyone else still needs massive reworks to their jobs. Ninja and smn for example.

[Silver-Strider]

MNK w/ Brotherhood: ~450 rDPS
DRG w/ Battle Litany + Dragon's Sight: ~740 rDPS
NIN w/ Trick Attack: ~1300 rDPS.

If DPS is balanced based on contribution, then I fail to see why MNK would need to be nerfed when it provides the least amount of rDPS contribution, despite Brotherhood being on a significantly shorter CD than the majority of other raid buffs (barring Trick Attack). It doesn't contribute as much, hence, MNK does more DPS than DRG or NIN, it has to else its not worth using and while people will argue that "oh MNK can ignore 90% of its positionals" why does that matter when classes like DRG/NIN/SAM have less than half the positional requirements that MNK does? Being able to "ignore" positionals doesn't instantly put it above the other melee DPS, it just puts them on more equal footing.

As for Mantra, its nice to have sure, but at most its saving the healers 1, maybe 2, GCD heals at best each time its used and you're not using Mantra on CD because not everyone is taking damage to make the most of it. If anything, I count it akin to Curing Waltz or Endless Flight in that, it helps periodically but the actual contribution it provides is maybe 100 extra DPS from the healers, which is hardly anything to write home about, especially if you can clear just fine without it. Defensive utility has a cap to its potential, DPS utility does not, so utility like Mantra, Shield Samba, etc, really don't contribute as much as buffs like Battle Voice, Trick Attack, etc. and shouldn't be taxed as heavily as a result.

So, why does MNK need a nerf, exactly?

[Karshan]

I think MCH could use a buff and overall help with dps on ranged attackers, but right now you get the sustained dps without any of the tradeoffs of melee DPS.

To use a exaggerated example, when doing Eden 1 there are lasers, movement, etc and my MCH can consistently without worrying about anything apply pressure and damage to the boss and continue to barrage them with bullets and my normal rotation. The DPS being lower (but maybe not as low as it is currently) makes perfect sense because Ranged DPS has no risk to reward in that regard, as opposed to Melee DPS which have to upkeep resources and stay in range of attacks or flat out stop damaging anything to avoid getting killed.

I've seen some people say that "movement" shouldn't be involved with damage calculations but I believe it absolutely should. If you can continue to barrage and destroy enemies while staying safe and far away and can't be stopped from casting, what's the detriment to the class? In an ideal scenario we'd get MCH to buff, get rid of the useless Tactician or give it more utility to make the nerfed damage make sense, give DNC more utility, etc. There's options there for their support class.

If a MCH does as much damage as a BLM, as some have proposed there's no point to play BLM. The balance there is that you can literally ignore mechanics and keep sustained damage on a boss. So anything other than a slight buff would raise my eyebrow a bit.

No. Once again, a misunderstanding on movement and uptime and balance.

Let's work with examples (and pretend good blm don't have 99% uptime anyway so movement argument is a bit bogus, but we won't focus on that for the sake of the reflexion).

It would be cool if indeed on paper a BLM were to do 15k and a range 13k, but because of the conditions of the fight (what you describe with eden1) the BLM gets hindered and drops at 13k while the mch can "continue to pressure" and stay at 13k. That is balance. That is ok, and it follows a good principle.

However, this is not how things go currently. The numbers being discussed, the ones fflogs show, are In-Fight, full reality-confronted numbers, not just paper numbers, which means that DESPITE the fight conditions, a blm sits at 15k while mch is at 13. So why bring a mch if a blm can do 2k more even when movement and uptime are already taken into account ?

[Karshan]

MNK w/ Brotherhood: ~450 rDPS
DRG w/ Battle Litany + Dragon's Sight: ~740 rDPS
NIN w/ Trick Attack: ~1300 rDPS.

If DPS is balanced based on contribution, then I fail to see why MNK would need to be nerfed when it provides the least amount of rDPS contribution, despite Brotherhood being on a significantly shorter CD than the majority of other raid buffs (barring Trick Attack). It doesn't contribute as much, hence, MNK does more DPS than DRG or NIN, it has to else its not worth using and while people will argue that "oh MNK can ignore 90% of its positionals" why does that matter when classes like DRG/NIN/SAM have less than half the positional requirements that MNK does? Being able to "ignore" positionals doesn't instantly put it above the other melee DPS, it just puts them on more equal footing.

As for Mantra, its nice to have sure, but at most its saving the healers 1, maybe 2, GCD heals at best each time its used and you're not using Mantra on CD because not everyone is taking damage to make the most of it. If anything, I count it akin to Curing Waltz or Endless Flight in that, it helps periodically but the actual contribution it provides is maybe 100 extra DPS from the healers, which is hardly anything to write home about, especially if you can clear just fine without it. Defensive utility has a cap to its potential, DPS utility does not, so utility like Mantra, Shield Samba, etc, really don't contribute as much as buffs like Battle Voice, Trick Attack, etc. and shouldn't be taxed as heavily as a result.

So, why does MNK need a nerf, exactly?

I think we have a terminology issue here. What people call rDPS now is the new metric FFlogs deployed which is "personal DPS + contrib given - contrib taken". So the rDPS is "what you bring to the table, all things considered". Monk does 15k, dreg 14, nin does 13k, all things considered : this is not balanced.

[Sora_Oathkeeper]

I think we have a terminology issue here. What people call rDPS now is the new metric FFlogs deployed which is "personal DPS + contrib given - contrib taken". So the rDPS is "what you bring to the table, all things considered". Monk does 15k, dreg 14, nin does 13k, all things considered : this is not balanced.

Don't spread false info.



https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...gregate=amount

at 95th percentile for all fights. The difference is literally 400 dps between MNK and NIN, with DRG and SAM inbetween.

[Karshan]

Don't spread false info.



https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...gregate=amount

at 95th percentile for all fights. The difference is literally 400 dps between MNK and NIN, with DRG and SAM inbetween.

Indeed, other melee users have improved on savage over time. When you go over the entire patch you can see the nija buff :

https://fr.fflogs.com/zone/statistic...gregate=amount



But since those bars are all things considered bars, they should all (all DPS) be at the same point to say it is balanced. So that bringing a nin or a mnk makes literally no difference (here it's "only" 400, but it's 400 that shouldn't exist in the first place).

I get that nerfs have bad press. I would be also fine with buffing everyone to 14k5, but for the sake of limiting power creep, it would be better to aim for 14k and so nerf a bit the first four (and buff the rest)

[Sora_Oathkeeper]

Indeed, other melee users have improved on savage over time. When you go over the entire patch you can see the nija buff :

https://fr.fflogs.com/zone/statistic...gregate=amount



But since those bars are all things considered bars, they should all (all DPS) be at the same point to say it is balanced. So that bringing a nin or a mnk makes literally no difference (here it's "only" 400, but it's 400 that shouldn't exist in the first place).

I get that nerfs have bad press. I would be also fine with buffing everyone to 14k5, but for the sake of limiting power creep, it would be better to aim for 14k and so nerf a bit the first four (and buff the rest)

While I somewhat agree, I think that kind of balance is almost impossible and the devs have proved time and time again that they just can't do it. DRG and NIN at the end of ARR were ahead of MNK by quite a bit due to their utility. The same problems were present in HW; DRG in a double ranged comp was about 300dps ahead of MNK which was a lot. NIN's TA was just ridiculously strong due to how many buffs could stack with it. The same problems were present in SB also, DRG in double ranged was leagues ahead of everyone, the only thing that offset the double meta was because people disliked how MCH played. While NIN was tied with TK MNK, speaking of which, TK MNK was about a 5% increase over non-TK MNK.

In an ideal world, I think DPS should be no further than 100-200dps apart. But i'd happily take the 500dps between melee right now. I'm still eager to see how the potency numbers change in 5.1 however, mostly because I want to see the undertuned DPS group pulled up. at least to DRG/SAM levels.

[Karshan]

While I somewhat agree, I think that kind of balance is almost impossible and the devs have proved time and time again that they just can't do it. DRG and NIN at the end of ARR were ahead of MNK by quite a bit due to their utility. The same problems were present in HW; DRG in a double ranged comp was about 300dps ahead of MNK which was a lot. NIN's TA was just ridiculously strong due to how many buffs could stack with it. The same problems were present in SB also, DRG in double ranged was leagues ahead of everyone, the only thing that offset the double meta was because people disliked how MCH played. While NIN was tied with TK MNK, speaking of which, TK MNK was about a 5% increase over non-TK MNK.

In an ideal world, I think DPS should be no further than 100-200dps apart. But i'd happily take the 500dps between melee right now. I'm still eager to see how the potency numbers change in 5.1 however, mostly because I want to see the undertuned DPS group pulled up. at least to DRG/SAM levels.

Indeed they have a hard time putting balance on it, maybe because players are very imaginative when it comes to optimizing rotations. I also agree fully with the range buff (we're 1k below and that's not cool)

[SpeckledBurd]

MNK w/ Brotherhood: ~450 rDPS
DRG w/ Battle Litany + Dragon's Sight: ~740 rDPS
NIN w/ Trick Attack: ~1300 rDPS.

If DPS is balanced based on contribution, then I fail to see why MNK would need to be nerfed when it provides the least amount of rDPS contribution, despite Brotherhood being on a significantly shorter CD than the majority of other raid buffs (barring Trick Attack). It doesn't contribute as much, hence, MNK does more DPS than DRG or NIN, it has to else its not worth using and while people will argue that "oh MNK can ignore 90% of its positionals" why does that matter when classes like DRG/NIN/SAM have less than half the positional requirements that MNK does? Being able to "ignore" positionals doesn't instantly put it above the other melee DPS, it just puts them on more equal footing.

As for Mantra, its nice to have sure, but at most its saving the healers 1, maybe 2, GCD heals at best each time its used and you're not using Mantra on CD because not everyone is taking damage to make the most of it. If anything, I count it akin to Curing Waltz or Endless Flight in that, it helps periodically but the actual contribution it provides is maybe 100 extra DPS from the healers, which is hardly anything to write home about, especially if you can clear just fine without it. Defensive utility has a cap to its potential, DPS utility does not, so utility like Mantra, Shield Samba, etc, really don't contribute as much as buffs like Battle Voice, Trick Attack, etc. and shouldn't be taxed as heavily as a result.

So, why does MNK need a nerf, exactly?

Because most of this thread is feely-craft lashing out at Monk for being the nail that sticks up slightly higher, even though it's not nearly as egregious as how DRG dominated throughout Heavensward and Stormblood and held its position via a vice grip on the design of the game. So while we're throwing out the actual numbers instead of feely-craft.
.

That being said, I wouldn't mind ranged doing the same dps or maybe 100-200 more in exchange (Well dancer would still need like 400-500 more) for more useful utility instead of a 180s cd reduce damage that's basically the nerfed version of addle/feint. Something that ranged can provide that no other roles can considering any buffs ranged gives, minus dance partner, every other class can do but better.

As it stands now monk has better utility than bard/dancer and better dps, which is broken as hell.

No, Monk doesn't have better utility than Bard/Dancer, that's just factually incorrect.

It certainly has stronger personal damage, but Brotherhood is still flat out the weakest party buff in the game. Battle Voice is 650-700 rDPS to Bard, while Brotherhood is 400-450 to Monk, and Devilment, Technical Finish, and Standard Finish add up to being 2000-2200 rRDPS. As Silver Strider said, even with Mantra that at best saves the Healers one or two GCDs which isn't anywhere near the difference between Battle Voice and Brotherhood.

And let's be real here, bringing Monk down to Ninja/Samurai in terms of Raid DPS doesn't actually solve the imbalance that exists in the game at the moment, because even if Monk is the strongest over BLM/DRG/NIN/SAM it's only by a small margin due to overperformance on E3S and E4S due to the way those fights are designed, DNC/MCH/SMN/BRD/RDM are all weaker than the weakest "good job", meaning Ninja, by a much larger margin (about 800-1000 DPS). If you nerf Monk it probably just puts us back into another 2 years of DRG/NIN melee Meta hell, and the Ranged/Non Black Mage casters are still under powered.

[SaitoHikari]

It certainly has stronger personal damage, but Brotherhood is still flat out the weakest party buff in the game. Battle Voice is 650-700 rDPS to Bard, while Brotherhood is 400-450 to Monk, and Devilment, Technical Finish, and Standard Finish add up to being 2000-2200 rRDPS. As Silver Strider said, even with Mantra that at best saves the Healers one or two GCDs which isn't anywhere near the difference between Battle Voice and Brotherhood.

I will have to correct you here, because Battle Voice is NOT 650-700 to Bard. In my own 99th percentile clear of Titan (where Battle Voice could be cast 5 times), Battle Voice only added about 500 rdps. In fact, I went through the top 10 world Bards for Titan, and found that only one met your criteria (the #1 ranked Bard who had their Battle Voice add 700 rdps). The majority of the rest hovered in the 500-620 range.

I also wouldn't call Brotherhood the weakest party buff in the game when Devotion exists, which has double the cooldown and the Summoner has to fight the server for the pet to actually use it properly. Sure, Brotherhood is physical DPS only, but most parties won't have more than 1 caster (and the parties that run double caster are most likely going to have double Black Mage).

That said, I am slowly agreeing with the assessment that Monk actually isn't overtuned, or if they are, it's not by that much. Thinking about it more, I would say that the actual problem is that Samurai is very undertuned for being a selfish DPS class, so they need to be brought up higher, with personal damage rivaling Black Mage. Samurai trailing behind as they are in the metrics just makes Monk look much better than they are. It's absurd that their adps is only about 100-200 above Monk at 95th+ percentile while providing no utility in comparison (and competing for a melee DPS slot), and Black Mage is allowed to have a 500+ gap between themselves and Monk in adps while being in a different role.