Monk needs to be nerfed hard. Change my mind.

[dinnertime]

You're right about Mantra (thus the conversation about us wanting to nerf Monk because of its utility being that crazy). But what I'm saying is if you're going to give something the ability to heal, even if you see it as "not as good" it needs to be balanced.

To use a simpler comparison, PLD has Clemency. It requires stopping damage to use, but it's a pretty meaty heal. Meanwhile GNB does a lot of damage but has less overall mitigation, has a discount hallowed ground, and has a regen that's kinda pointless with their brutal shell mitigation being only limited to single targets. PLD should do less damage because not only do they have a ton more mitigation and sheer "ignore damage" skills, and yet is pretty neck and neck with GNB. Imo GNB and WAR should be the "offensive tanks" and PLD and DRK should be the slow defensive ones. But that's for Tank topics :P

The ability to double cast Vercure and double res is pretty notable and not really something to wave off, especially when I've literally two manned a raid/trial thanks to RDM's ability to do both, and weave their heals inbetween their casts for damage. "having vercure" sounds bad when you say it like that, sure, but put in dual cast wher eyou can "attack/heal/attack/heal/attack/heal" and that can literally save people from a wipe.

Sure the physick skill and res may not be "Great" on SMN but they're there. Being able to res (especially with swiftcast in their kit) is not "pointless" to me.

The thing is...unlike tanks whose jobs are to tank and mitigate damage, RDM and SMN's job is to DPS. Using Vercure and Physick (which literally does less than 5% of your HP so it really shouldn't be considered at all in balancing) requires casting which eats a gcd so becomes detrimental to what they should be doing. Sure, RDM should be using Vercure when they absolutely need to, otherwise you should let the healers do the healing. It's not a good idea to even consider their measly heals into the balance, especially when healers have so many toolkits for healing now.

I didn't even mention Raise since I do agree it should be considered in balancing, but right now the caster role balance is so bad and everyone is thinking that Raise is the culprit. How they balance the role due to Raise should be reconsidered.

[Tobias_Azuryon]

The thing is...unlike tanks whose jobs are to tank and mitigate damage, RDM and SMN's job is to DPS. Using Vercure and Physick (which literally does less than 5% of your HP so it really shouldn't be considered at all in balancing) requires casting which eats a gcd so becomes detrimental to what they should be doing. Sure, RDM should be using Vercure when they absolutely need to, otherwise you should let the healers do the healing. It's not a good idea to even consider their measly heals into the balance, especially when healers have so many toolkits for healing now.

I didn't even mention Raise since I do agree it should be considered in balancing, but right now the caster role balance is so bad and everyone is thinking that Raise is the culprit. How they balance the role due to Raise should be reconsidered.

I can see your point and concede that heals shouldn't be weighted as much as res, definitely. I can see where you're coming from. That's also why I said that current meta being healers having so many kits and so little damage dealing and stuff messes with this too because now healers don't really "need" help. But that's another tangent entirely.