AST changes for 5.1+ feedback

[Side-Eye]

Considering how bad CU currently is, they could nerf it to 30~45s and that would solve this issue? Ss would still be better but that would elevate most of the issue.

Um, the last thing we need is to have a more frequent ability which requires us to STOP all other heals and STOP all DPS and STOP all card draws and buffs --- while we stand there motionless for 10 seconds waiting for a bubble to pulse tiny heals (for those who stay in the bubble).

Collective Unconscious is BROKEN. By requiring us to stop everything else we're supposed to be doing, and stay in one spot (in a game with ever increasing move and doge mechanics), the healing portion of CU would need to be truly spectacular -- enough to offset the true cost of using it: zero direct healing and zero pDPS and zero buffing. So unless Square is willing to make that happen, there's no sense in asking to be able to cast it more often.

[Wawachume]

For me, the mana regen has always been one of the main disadvantages of nocturnal vis-à-vis scholar. I agree with Semirhage that shields have to cost more than regens. It's just that scholar has the tools to deal with that and nocturnal doesn't. This may also be why we see stuff like nocturnal astrologians solo-healing raids---in a coordinated group, you save a lot of mana by knowing exactly when your shields will be needed. With random players in a random dungeon, you end up doing a lot more shield spam, so nocturnal is at a disadvantage there.

But I think it's also that nocturnal lacks scholar's free regen from the fairy, which kind of helps to fill the gaps in an otherwise shield-only toolkit. (Well, I guess in ShB scholar has other regens on top of that.)

[LariaKirin]

Um, the last thing we need is to have a more frequent ability which requires us to STOP all other heals and STOP all DPS and STOP all card draws and buffs --- while we stand there motionless for 10 seconds waiting for a bubble to pulse tiny heals (for those who stay in the bubble).

Collective Unconscious is BROKEN. By requiring us to stop everything else we're supposed to be doing, and stay in one spot (in a game with ever increasing move and doge mechanics), the healing portion of CU would need to be truly spectacular -- enough to offset the true cost of using it: zero direct healing and zero pDPS and zero buffing. So unless Square is willing to make that happen, there's no sense in asking to be able to cast it more often.

That is not how you use CU. You activate the bubble and then interrupt it immediately. The party will get a few seconds of the mitigation and the entire length of the regen. This is why 150 potency CU was so strong in Stormblood.

[tesni_g]

That is not how you use CU. You activate the bubble and then interrupt it immediately. The party will get a few seconds of the mitigation and the entire length of the regen. This is why 150 potency CU was so strong in Stormblood.

I agree with you that yes, that's optimal use of CU.

But the fact that it isn't an instant ability (like we use it), and instead suggests that channeling is possible for upwards of 10 seconds, and doesn't explicitly say on the tooltip that the hot and mitigation snapshot as a buff regardless of channeling time invested, this is bad design.

Especially since, if you have one or two players just outside your CU range, an AST might feel obligated to hold it for a GCD, long enough for stragglers to get inside. Often I can see the DPS near me but I overestimated my range to the tanks and I can't immediately see whether I hit them, so I check their buffs before I move. Often, missed players will try to jump inside of it, which only matters if I'm still channeling it.

So there are a lot of less-optimal reasons an AST might "hold" and channel for a GCD or two. It's not fun, it doesn't feel good, but I can see why it happens. And because we don't get to "see" the range of it, we can't place ourselves as well as the true ground effect abilities. The other ground effects have the added bonus of being able to enter them and exit them until the effect is over, while CU snapshots based on that invisible 5 yalm radius around you.

It's broken for a lot of reasons, and its channeled nature is part of it. It's not "necessary" to channel. Unless you or someone else make a mistake, and then you pay for it by doing nothing inside a pretty ball of light.

[DaFood]

For future healer adjustments, I hope SE can consider the followings:

1. Reconsider know how bad for AST+SCH combo to heal a Living Dead.

2. Major part of AST's dps coming from the teammates' dps and coordinate.I hope SE can value more about this teamwork effort instead of Glare * infinite style.

I can feel SE wants more people to play WHM, but I really hope they can find the balance of it.

[LariaKirin]

I agree with you that yes, that's optimal use of CU.

But the fact that it isn't an instant ability (like we use it), and instead suggests that channeling is possible for upwards of 10 seconds, and doesn't explicitly say on the tooltip that the hot and mitigation snapshot as a buff regardless of channeling time invested, this is bad design.

Especially since, if you have one or two players just outside your CU range, an AST might feel obligated to hold it for a GCD, long enough for stragglers to get inside. Often I can see the DPS near me but I overestimated my range to the tanks and I can't immediately see whether I hit them, so I check their buffs before I move. Often, missed players will try to jump inside of it, which only matters if I'm still channeling it.

So there are a lot of less-optimal reasons an AST might "hold" and channel for a GCD or two. It's not fun, it doesn't feel good, but I can see why it happens. And because we don't get to "see" the range of it, we can't place ourselves as well as the true ground effect abilities. The other ground effects have the added bonus of being able to enter them and exit them until the effect is over, while CU snapshots based on that invisible 5 yalm radius around you.

It's broken for a lot of reasons, and its channeled nature is part of it. It's not "necessary" to channel. Unless you or someone else make a mistake, and then you pay for it by doing nothing inside a pretty ball of light.

I don't agree that it's bad design.

The tooltip describes what the ability does, it does not tell you the best way to use it: "Creates a wheel of fortune around the caster, granting 10% damage reduction and applying a Regen effect to any party members who enter.". That's completely correct.
The details on how to use the ability effectively is what guides and playing experience are for. You can see with your own eyes that the regen/mitigation effect stays after the channel is cancelled. If you don't notice this, you're not at a point where the difference between channeling and cancelling matters.

Everyone loved CU in Stormblood. Now it's "broken". Yet nothing changed, but the potency. I think it's fine, except that there's no reason why it shouldn't be a little higher potency.

[tesni_g]

I don't agree that it's bad design.

The tooltip describes what the ability does, it does not tell you the best way to use it: "Creates a wheel of fortune around the caster, granting 10% damage reduction and applying a Regen effect to any party members who enter.". That's completely correct.
The details on how to use the ability effectively is what guides and playing experience are for. You can see with your own eyes that the regen/mitigation effect stays after the channel is cancelled. If you don't notice this, you're not at a point where the difference between channeling and cancelling matters.

Everyone loved CU in Stormblood. Now it's "broken". Yet nothing changed, but the potency. I think it's fine, except that there's no reason why it shouldn't be a little higher potency.

Absolutely, should have a much higher potency or a much quicker recast. Or both.

The tooltip doesn't describe how long the mitigation effect stays active. There is no mention of the damage reduction lingering past the AST's channeling animation. Maybe it's a stupid thing to be arguing about but our tooltips suck, our abilities are clunky, our potencies are weak.

CU is an unforgiving and finicky ability, and that might not be such a big deal were it not that every single AST ability is unforgiving, finicky, and/or high maintenance. The opener is unforgiving. Play is finicky. Horoscope is high maintenance. If CU was the only ability that had core execution problems, I wouldn't be complaining. Probably.

I love Earthly Star, too, but every single thing that AST does requires two buttons or two buttons and a direct cast. In this regard, they had an opportunity to make CU effortless, in stark contrast to the OGCD machine that is Horoscope, Cards, and Star. But instead, CU has all the drawbacks of a ground effect without the benefit of being a ground effect.

If the cooldown on CU was reduced, I would probably enjoy it more, because then it's less "a giant long cooldown wasted" and more "I'll position better next time" or "I can use it on the tank now and still have it up again for the raidwide later." That would be amazing. A 90 second cooldown should be powerful and straightforward to use, so CU should be either buffed into the appropriate power level for 90 second recast and have some of its disadvantages minimized/reworked, or have it brought down to a 60 second cooldown to join the ranks of Horoscope and Celestial Opposition.

[LariaKirin]

Absolutely, should have a much higher potency or a much quicker recast. Or both.

I love Earthly Star, too, but every single thing that AST does requires two buttons or two buttons and a direct cast. In this regard, they had an opportunity to make CU effortless, in stark contrast to the OGCD machine that is Horoscope, Cards, and Star. But instead, CU has all the drawbacks of a ground effect without the benefit of being a ground effect.

I don't know about much higher, but there's no reason it should be so weak if you compare it to Sacred Soil for example. In terms of usability, I don't see a problem with it having a larger radius.

Talking about tooltips will likely be a waste of time. You'll find problems with many tooltips if what you want from them is more than a simple description of what the ability does. I think details and nuances should be observed and discovered, because you can see the effects for yourself.

Also, it's not just disadvantages. Its advantage over Soil is that if you have to move out of Soil, you lose the effect. Obviously, this can be solved by better planning, but that is also true for CU.

I won't speak for other AST players. I personally think Earthly Star is perfect. There's a big payoff at the end that rewards good planning. I don't see a problem with it requiring two buttons (which can be reduced to just one button with good enough planning).

[tesni_g]

I won't speak for other AST players. I personally think Earthly Star is perfect. There's a big payoff at the end that rewards good planning. I don't see a problem with it requiring two buttons (which can be reduced to just one button with good enough planning).

Star is perfection, not just for its usage but also its place in the toolkit. The two button (or one button ideal) adds to the satisfaction of using it well.

Isolating CU and comparing it to SS or Asylum makes it seem like perhaps the drawbacks of CU are fair, outside of potency. I see what you're saying. My point is, since we're talking about AST's drawbacks, that in its whole kit compared to the whole kit of WHM or SCH, that CU is not okay by potency, recast, awkwardness, and function within the toolkit.

Tooltip language could get real pedantic but to convey to a non-healer how CU's mitigation works requires an explanation not found anywhere in game. I want nuance and stuff in how the abilities play out outside of tooltips too, but I'm still of the mind that they should have changed CU's tooltip to explain the 5 second mitigation mechanic when they fundamentally reworked CU in the middle of Stormblood--I want to say that happened in 4.x, somewhere around Sigmascape, around the same time that Malefic cast was shortened (?). It's been almost two years and we are still explaining to newer AST and non-healers alike how this ability "actually" works. I will be happy with any changes that support new healers to feel comfortable and confident with their abilities.

I started out thinking my dislike of CU was all in its clunk, radius, and low potency, but through our conversation now I realize that my dislike stems less from its specific drawbacks but more that the AST kit in general has all these extra steps and quirks built in. If we didn't have cards, CU and Star and even Horoscope would be a breeze to weave. But right now we have these high maintenance cards which makes the extra steps of clunky heals feel like "too much."

It's less a specific critique of CU, but how CU fits in the entire AST schema and cohealer contribution package (especially since Asylum and SS can be timed well enough to cover two back to back mechanics). Since SE seems married to the cards as they are, I feel that the bulk of AST abilities outside of cards should be straightforward and reliable.

We're past that place where we agree to disagree, I think, but thank you for letting me ramble in your direction while I figured out how to articulate my thoughts. CU is one of several squeaky wheels that AST rides on. A little grease would make it feel more like a whole and working machine.

[Corbeau]

Canceling CU immediately is not intuitive gameplay for a continuous channeled spell.