I love where Summoner is at right now

[Shougun]

i understood that but like i said EA still delay our damage and while it wont interrupt ruin III or miasma cast or outburst, ruin IV is still a problem with those delays and also the ghosting of AE those delays caused or simply not being cast at all are still a major issue that harms our dps.
so simply changing EA so it will not trigger our gcd wont make it better at all.

i understand you like issuing command to the pet but AE must have its command delay issues fixed and if it can't be done then removed and replaced with something else.

If you understood it then you would understood I said without delay :P. Without-delay. Without-interruption. Only it's own cooldown is the limitation (cooldown based on whatever SE feels the rotation/rate should be, since without cooldown you could cast all 4 within 1 second under this concept). So I think you're assuming some part of the system remains there which I said specifically would not (also why I said I'm not sure SE can actually do that on a technical side, something usually only MOBAs do in my experience of playing games).

Casting Ruin IV and casting Ruin IV + EA II would look /exactly/ the same in terms of delay and timings (assuming you pressed both skills in succession at least lol, if there was a delay it would be then to the player's fault). Not that I'm even sold on that suggestion, just that it would make casting EA really easy for me (as I can multi-queue them without issue, and removing the delays would make it smooth to use EA, for me- I know it's still a lot of buttons though lol so I'm just hoping SE gets thoughtful before they get the scalpel). If they have to as there is no other option then they have to... but hopefully not, and if they do hopefully there is a resurgence later (even if just in spirit).

Also said before that the damage from egi (not in the post you quoted to be fair) should be more consistent, with the egi also dashing like the queen turret to do their deeds whenever necessary. But again, I sincerely meant without delay- from top to bottom, the whole shabang. I wouldn't mind if they even post dated the visual damage but had the damage itself go off instantly lol (like when you press the skill the monster server side registers the damage but the visual info is delayed to the end of the attack to make it look like it came from said animation), that sounds like a hassle in coding though, better if the egi were just exceptionally responsive and fast.

[Dyvid]

Shougun, right now we should be in triage mode, not "I like this ability so we should keep it despite its problems because theme" mode. If Egi Assault is truly worth saving, then it can be fixed in 6.0, but right now the primary goal of everyone in ShB with SMN should be to make the class actually flow well and function. If that means literally deleting egis, then they can be added later if people actually want them and the devs can do it right. Until then, the first priority is making the class functional with the least amount of effort possible.

And between EA and Aetherflow, EA is a vastly bigger offender in practice for a variety of other reasons than just raw oGCD count. It's low damage, throws out errors with normal play, and massively clutters the rotation in a way that creates those errors. It doesn't feel good to actually use it from a gameplay perspective, but is mandatory anyways because ruin 4 procs. It's the most likely candidate to just remove right now.

Yea, no. Delete Egi for the simple fact of deleting Egi is just poor excuse for fixing issues. You are claiming triage mode but want to cut off the leg because it has a broken toe.

Egi Assault are bad because it's sole purpose right now is to proc Ruin IV so don't have Egi proc Ruin IV. They should be nothing more than command the pet to use an ability like Enkindle and Aetherpact. Furthermore the errors are human created by trying to jam 4 abilities into 1 sec. Of course a command is going to be missed giving FFXIV net code. If anything SE needs to add a 1.5 to 2.5 sec recast on them.

SE's goal right now should be make Dreadwyrm Trance and Demi-Bahamut mirror what they did with Firebird Trance, and then figure out how to add the aetherflow build phase from 3.X and 4.X back into the rotation. Clearly Egi damage formula also needs adjustment to improve it's DPS output.

[CrimsonGunner]

If you understood it then you would understood I said without delay :P. With-out-delay. With-out-interruption. Only it's own cooldown is the limitation (cooldown based on whatever SE feels the rotation/rate should be, since without cooldown you could cast all 4 within 1 second under this concept). So I think you're assuming some part of the system remains there which I said specifically would not (also why I said I'm not sure SE can actually do that on a technical side, something usually only MOBAs do in my experience of playing games).

Casting Ruin IV and casting Ruin IV + EA II would look /exactly/ the same in terms of delay and timings (assuming you pressed both skills in succession at least lol, if there was a delay it would be then to the player's fault). Not that I'm even sold on that suggestion, just that it would make casting EA really easy for me (as I can multi-queue them without issue, and removing the delays would make it smooth to use EA, for me- I know it's still a lot of buttons though lol so I'm just hoping SE gets thoughtful before they get the scalpel).

Also said before that the damage from egi (not in the post you quoted to be fair) should be more consistent, with the egi dashing like the queen turret to do their deeds. But again, I sincerely meant without delay- from top to bottom, the whole shabang. I wouldn't mind if they even post dated the visual damage but had the damage itself go off instantly lol (like when you press the skill the monster registers the damage but the visually info is delayed to the end of the attack to make it look like it came from said animation), that sounds like a hassle in coding though, better if the egi were just exceptionally responsive and fast.

if by "without delay" you also meant that after casting EA, the pet will immediately drop whatever its doing and do its EA(no waiting for pet to finish its auto attacks or whatever it was doing and actually execute the command immediately after) and not just making EA skill available during casting time like that then i won't have any problems and your idea will be great if it was implemented as part of it.

however as long the problem with that the pet doesn't execute it's EA after command still remain and it can not be fixed then i will be in favor of removing EA and wanting it to be replaced with something else.

[Shougun]

Yea, no. Delete Egi for the simple fact of deleting Egi is just poor excuse for fixing issues. You are claiming triage mode but want to cut off the leg because it has a broken toe. Egi Assault are bad because it's sole purpose right now is to proc Ruin IV so don't have Egi proc Ruin IV. They should be nothing more than command the pet to use an ability like Enkindle and Aetherpact. Further more the errors are human created by trying to jam 4 abilities into 1 sec. Of course a command is going to be missed giving FFXIV net code. If anything SE needs to add a 1.5 to 2.5 sec recast on them. SE's goal right now should be make Dreadwyrm Trance and Demi-Bahamut mirror what they did with Firebird Trance, and then figure out how to add the aetherflow build phase from 3.X and 4.X back into the rotation.

Summoner is actually pretty chill if you don't try to cram everything in lol. I would be totally okay if they forced a balance with the help of some cooldowns.

if by "without delay" you also meant that after casting EA, the pet will immediately drop whatever its doing and do its EA(no waiting for pet to finish its auto attacks or whatever it was doing and actually execute the command immediately after) and not just making EA skill available during casting time like that then i won't have any problems and your idea will be great if it was implemented as part of it.

however as long the problem with that the pet doesn't execute it's EA after command still remain and it can not be fixed then i will be in favor of removing EA and wanting it to be replaced with something else.

Yes I think the pet should be like YES MASTER? I DONT CARE WHAT I WAS DOING, YOUR WISH IS MY COMMAND... your little dobby lol. Rub the lamp and the genie shall respond.

Like if you cast Egi assault on monster A who is on the west side of the platform, Ifrit rushes off to location and if too far dashes there instead- then you cast EA on B who is on the east side and Ifrit ghost, anime flash step, goku tranmissions his butt into range to then finish off with a dash attack of the move issued. It's just aether you've whisked into the air anyways, not like it has to follow rules of transportation XD. I would like if the primal buddies still moved around, though I understand why people suggest infinite range turrets to get around the system issues as are... hopefully we can get around the system issues without making them feel like they're stationary or that we can't include them into our kit though.

Similarly your Demi should ensure they're never missing out on damage, even if you're moving or whatever. Also I can see how I confused you in the beginning, since I didn't repeat myself from another thread (which is my bad, I don't and shouldn't expect you to follow me lol). But yes, I agree with you, that I don't think Egi should have long delays in response.

[Dyvid]

Summoner is actually pretty chill if you don't try to cram everything in lol. I would be totally okay if they forced a balance with the help of some cooldowns.

Oh I know but as long as it proc Ruin IV people are going to spam it. The moment I saw that they where adding charges I knew problem like this were going to happen.

[CrimsonGunner]

Oh I know but as long as it proc Ruin IV people are going to spam it. The moment I saw that they where adding charges I knew problem like this were going to happen.

agree,i believe giving EA ruin IV proc isn't good and that instead they should give something more meaningful.
a few examples are: added effect to a skill or give us a buff depending on who we summon or the reverse approach we buff the pets damage like empower the next EA/Enkindle they do or increase their damage for a certain duration and leave the command as they are rather then tying them to ruin IV proc to give a false sense of connection or "deeper" interaction with the egi.

[Dyvid]

agree,i believe giving EA ruin IV proc isn't good and that instead they should give something more meaningful.
a few examples are: added effect to a skill or give us a buff depending on who we summon or the reverse approach we buff the pets damage like empower the next EA/Enkindle they do or increase their damage for a certain duration and leave the command as they are rather then tying them to ruin IV proc to give a false sense of connection or "deeper" interaction with the egi.

Just give it damage and add toward the progression of Trance. I not sure if you played in either 3.X or 4.X but the way the system worked is you have 3 Aetherflow stacks, casting Fester or Painflare used one stack and would charge your Trance Gauge. After 3 stacks, Dreadwyrm Trance was ready for use. Most people liked this system because it felt like you were building up to something greater.

[Aomine1992]

Egi assault should just be gone, throw Bahamut fat self into DWT and just change Ruin 3 to ruin 4 while in DWT and lower the cd times on our summons (just shooting from the hip with these changes) But between the egis and egi assault they both need to go.

The ruin 4 proc is so iffy, every now and then I will be 1-2 procs off from the amount of assaults used. Of course the skill just goes on cd but someone said it best in this thread.

SMN was never pruned like it should have been so now we have too many things going on at once but not working together which is causing so many issues with the class.

We have been complaining about Demi summons AI since SB and crap pet AI since forever, why doesn’t SE want to do a proper job with these issues, we just remain a slave to SE’s terrible AI once again except it’s gotten worse and the class is an utter mess needing almost a full rework.

[Brandedblade]

Why would you want to kill the only part that feels good and flowish ?

Like I said, in my head i like the idea of cycling through instant cast cycles where you control your egi and turret cycles where you unleash big meaty hits in tandem with your Demi Summon.

And honestly? My only issue with the idea is the fact that Summon Phoenix does feel incredibly good to use as is, and I'm struggling to come up with a way to make firebird trance feel good without taking away from summon Phoenix. While I do wish the demi summons didnt have such massive separation anxiety and just stood in place while you casted your spells, I also do not hate the feeling of planting myself down and casting Ruin IIIs with Bahamut smashing at the enemy with his wyrm waves.

[Grimoire-M]

Like I said, in my head i like the idea of cycling through instant cast cycles where you control your egi and turret cycles where you unleash big meaty hits in tandem with your Demi Summon.

And honestly? My only issue with the idea is the fact that Summon Phoenix does feel incredibly good to use as is, and I'm struggling to come up with a way to make firebird trance feel good without taking away from summon Phoenix. While I do wish the demi summons didnt have such massive separation anxiety and just stood in place while you casted your spells, I also do not hate the feeling of planting myself down and casting Ruin IIIs with Bahamut smashing at the enemy with his wyrm waves.

Bahamut ideally should be paired with DWT, but if I was gonna separate them to be a Trance -> Summon -> Trance -> Summon rotation I'd change DWT to specifically enhance magic damage by a significant portion in addition to being a mobility cooldown (to kill the current opener) while keeping FBT as it functioned pre-phoenix and just copy Summon Phoenix over to Summon Bahamut. No longer being strictly tied to Trance means you can actually plan out Phoenix's HoT if the above DWT change was made. That's enough to matter when it comes to optimization and giving that Demi actual relevance mid-fight.

The problem with that, in my opinion, is we don't need it as much as we need other changes that fix the other problems Summoners are suffering from in their rotation right now, while making the Egi themselves more relevant by giving them a numerical push. It feels closer to a proper Summoner compared to all of its previous iterations mechanically, within the constraints of the engine and previous design space, and given SE's historical tendency towards minimal changes when it comes to dealing with Pets in general, I'd prefer to focus on the few things we reasonably can expect to be fixed, rather than the many we can't.