I love where Summoner is at right now

[Taranok]

I'm under the impression one of the issues with gameplay flow is the immense amount of ogcd weaving you need to do if you want to keep on top of everything. That's what a great about DWT is that it gives you the nessecary weave space to manage all the abilities. Whereas with summon Phoenix you cant weave all your egi assaults because of Phoenix.

I have thought more about it and the suggestion people have been making about just keeping egis out during summon windows would also be a sufficient solution. But I'm rather fond of the idea of 30 sec cycles of "instant casts +egi control" and "stand still and turret out massive damage with a demi summon"

The issue is, Demi-Bahamut itself is actively worse because DB is not tied to DWT. Egis being mutually exclusive with Demis is a design problem of the class, one that needs to be fixed, but having hard casts as your primary GCD for DB is also a problem, and it's a bigger problem than Egi-Assault not being usable is (and that's also a problem).

Remember, the demis are not fire and forget, if we aren't doing anything then they aren't doing anything. This is the biggest flaw with Demi summon design because we're expected to get 8 hits, but we can't always guarantee 8 hits which can cause a massive DPS loss, sometimes through no fault of our own.

If the demis functioned more like Automaton Queen, then you'd have an argument, but I'd counter-argue that DWT is a bad stance because it doesn't do anything except give instant cast GCDs and enable DB afterwards, with a side of Deathflare whenever you want, so even if DB worked like AQ, I'd still want it to summon during DWT.

These elements clash with each other, not compliment. This is what makes this an awful design choice and why choosing to focus on one means the other needs changes as well.

Ultimately, I believe that the primary design of the class should focus around demis, therefore everything should make demis more interesting or stable. I personally feel though that FBT with an AQ-style demi design is the best choice. Such that you trance the pet and the pet does its own thing (read: is stable DPS non-determinant by the player's actions) and the trances instead alter the SMN rotation with demi-themed abilities, so the pet is a tacked on piece of AWESOME, but WE are the ones doing fun things aside it.

After that, it's a matter of making every aspect of the class compliment this style. And frankly, I hate how egis are mutually exclusive with demis and would rather see egis removed than made permanent. Everything else is simply an exercise in trimming excess to streamline the rotation so it doesn't have abilities coming up in a feast or famine style of 5 oGCDs every 30 seconds mandatory.

[Rika007]

*Snip*

Here here. This is what I like to see. Summoner has been walking the line between far too many identities for 4 expansions now. In 2.0 it was a Dot class, a Pet class and a Resource class.In 3.0 it was all those things and a Trance/Burst Class. In 4.0 it was all those things and now a Demi summon class with strong utility aspects as well. They kept having to make emergency changes each time to try and streamline all these changes but finally now with ShB the proverbial straw has finally broken not only the Camel's back but every other bone it's body by removing pet commands in lieu of full on pet actions and untying the Aetherflow commands from the Trance Cycle. Almost none of SMN's mechanics work together to the point that we could literally remove half of them and it would have no effect on the other mechanics at all.

Think of that. Imagine if you removed the entire Umbral Ice rotation from Black Mage, or removed the eye management system from Dragoon, or the proc system from Bard. If you did any of those things you would immediately have to massively rework multiple other parts of the job's core function immediately. But what happens to Summoner if you removed Egi's? The only thing you would lose is the ability to use Ruin 4, which affects not a single other part of the Summoner's kit, not it's aetherflow management, not it's dot's, not it's Trance cycle, or it's Demi Summons. This isn't good design, and is just one of the many issues with the job right now.

[Shougun]

But what happens to Summoner if you removed Egi's?

I mean that was a bit true before too though :3- at least since they operated themselves before. Like if you removed them in the past, besides contagion and needing some buffs from lost damage (a buff we'd need now too if you removed egi all together), it would be 'oh well' as the job still plays pretty much the same (just saying summoner has always had an interesting split where one part and the other don't really need to talk to each other). Not that I have anything against the Demi-focus concept Taranok has been working, honestly if the whole job was Demi would be pretty spiffy looking and I'd be okay with that lol.

I like Egi Assault due to theme (and I like commanding the egi to do something), I can see them causing flow issues with the current kit (so many buttons to press lol), but just removing egi assault I think would be a bit sad. Just I guess I'd rather lose other parts of Arcanist than lose assaults. And would be okay if they baked the assaults in differently though, like making sure they're helpful during demi and or if they replaced ruin and ruin was part of some other mechanic (like you collect ruins and you unleash all the ruins you successfully collected at once like a mini-demi-bahamut terraflare). Also would like to encourage more calling from the egi concepts (or demi sure, that could work).

Just hope whatever they do doesn't change that influence of primal spirit, focusing on Demi or whatever is fine but focus on ruins and bio/miasma.. I'd rather focus on egi assault and make that better then. I can see the issue that things need to be made a bit more tighter but I liked that change in the expansion (having more direct push on the primal theme). Any other change I hope continues that direction (demi, egi, whatever).

Played a lot of summoner previously (mechanical played fine, didn't like how it represented it's theme though), and once I clean out my inventory of level 60 stuff (on a mission to level 70 everything), then I'm going back to making it my main DD (haven't played it that much since expansion so I haven't had the chance to taste the full power of phoenix, which I've heard is the better part of the trance system now).

I'm super interested to see what they'll do for summoner in 5.1, wonder if they'll talk about the job at all in the live letter coming up shortly... ~! Hype .

[Karshan]

If I had a say, what I'd want to see is Summon Phoenix seperated from firebird trance. That way the cycle is Trance -> Summon -> Trance -> Summon, whereas the the trance windows give you your chance to manage your aetherflow and pet ogcds, and the summon windows are your "plant yourself and turret" my only real issue is coming up with a way to make firebird feel more distinct from dwt, since currently summon Phoenix being the way it is goes change your rotation.

Why would you want to kill the only part that feels good and flowish ?

[Taranok]

Shougun, right now we should be in triage mode, not "I like this ability so we should keep it despite its problems because theme" mode. If Egi Assault is truly worth saving, then it can be fixed in 6.0, but right now the primary goal of everyone in ShB with SMN should be to make the class actually flow well and function. If that means literally deleting egis, then they can be added later if people actually want them and the devs can do it right. Until then, the first priority is making the class functional with the least amount of effort possible.

And between EA and Aetherflow, EA is a vastly bigger offender in practice for a variety of other reasons than just raw oGCD count. It's low damage, throws out errors with normal play, and massively clutters the rotation in a way that creates those errors. It doesn't feel good to actually use it from a gameplay perspective, but is mandatory anyways because ruin 4 procs. It's the most likely candidate to just remove right now.

[CrimsonGunner]

Here here. This is what I like to see. Summoner has been walking the line between far too many identities for 4 expansions now. In 2.0 it was a Dot class, a Pet class and a Resource class.In 3.0 it was all those things and a Trance/Burst Class. In 4.0 it was all those things and now a Demi summon class with strong utility aspects as well. They kept having to make emergency changes each time to try and streamline all these changes but finally now with ShB the proverbial straw has finally broken not only the Camel's back but every other bone it's body by removing pet commands in lieu of full on pet actions and untying the Aetherflow commands from the Trance Cycle. Almost none of SMN's mechanics work together to the point that we could literally remove half of them and it would have no effect on the other mechanics at all.

Think of that. Imagine if you removed the entire Umbral Ice rotation from Black Mage, or removed the eye management system from Dragoon, or the proc system from Bard. If you did any of those things you would immediately have to massively rework multiple other parts of the job's core function immediately. But what happens to Summoner if you removed Egi's? The only thing you would lose is the ability to use Ruin 4, which affects not a single other part of the Summoner's kit, not it's aetherflow management, not it's dot's, not it's Trance cycle, or it's Demi Summons. This isn't good design, and is just one of the many issues with the job right now.

technically speaking removing egi will also make them edit demi to be summoned without a pet being sacrificed but i agree with your point.

we can literally remove a part from the summoner kit and it wont affect any of the other parts left.
remove dots and aetherflow : pets/trance/ruin remain uneffected.
remove pets:we lose demi and ruin IV proc but we will still have ruin III while trance/dots and aetherflow remain uneffected.
remove trance:we lose demi but pets/ruin/dots and aetherflow remain uneffected.

Its true,it basically mean it doesn't matter what part is removed or what part we use, it will not impact/effect the other parts of the kit and that's really bad.

the kit is literally in pieces and not connected at all.
crossing fingers that in 5.1 summoner kit will change and receive its much needed attention.

[Shougun]

Shougun, right now we should be in triage mode, not "I like this ability so we should keep it despite its problems because theme" mode. If Egi Assault is truly worth saving, then it can be fixed in 6.0, but right now the primary goal of everyone in ShB with SMN should be to make the class actually flow well and function. If that means literally deleting egis, then they can be added later if people actually want them and the devs can do it right. Until then, the first priority is making the class functional with the least amount of effort possible.

And between EA and Aetherflow, EA is a vastly bigger offender in practice for a variety of other reasons than just raw oGCD count. It's low damage, throws out errors with normal play, and massively clutters the rotation in a way that creates those errors. It doesn't feel good to actually use it from a gameplay perspective, but is mandatory anyways because ruin 4 procs. It's the most likely candidate to just remove right now.

I guess I'd just say I don't think it needs to be deleted now lol, I believe they can find something else without having to remove entire abilities (or.. egi). I know you're in triage mode, just saying I don't want triage to turn into excision mode unless that's literally the only option (encouraging SE to play with what they've set up before being like "lol bye egi, see you guys in a year").

Like if they allowed me to cast EA during other abilities with a slight cooldown to prevent over tapping, something I don't know if their system allows (but is something you can experience in other games, especially moba), then I'd be fine weaving it all smoothly (for myself, I know that's still a lot of key presses for others though). The are other issues after that, but just an example of how it would feel smoother already to me without having to cut something entirely. Something I hope they play with as they're trying to make it smoother (not my idea, just the idea that scrapping primal stuff should be low on the list of desirable outcomes). Obviously if it plays well enough to be loved is a better case than it plays poorly but is fantastic theme, but ideally best case is both lol. Of course I know you're in triage mode lol, given that I have no idea how much work SE is willing to put into smoothing things out, how quickly, or what ideas they're considering, I just wanted to be sure and say "I like this, don't throw this out unless you can't make it work at all".

[CrimsonGunner]

I guess I'd just say I don't think it needs to be deleted now lol, I believe they can find something else without having to remove entire abilities (or.. egi). I know you're in triage mode, just saying I don't want triage to turn into excision mode unless that's literally the only option (encouraging SE to play with what they've set up before being like "lol bye egi, see you guys in a year").

Like if they allowed me to cast EA during other abilities with a slight cooldown to prevent over tapping, something I don't know if their system allows (but is something you can experience in other games, especially moba), then I'd be fine weaving it all smoothly (for myself, I know that's still a lot of key presses for others though). The are other issues after that, but just an example of how it would feel smoother already to me without having to cut something entirely. Something I hope they play with as they're trying to make it smoother (not my idea, just the idea that scrapping primal stuff should be low on the list of desirable outcomes).

but it still doesn't solve the problems of delay in commands and the issue with wasted commands it makes.not to mention EA also delay our dps which is kinda bad for us.

maybe if they worked EA to be somehow instant or that the pet cast it every x seconds in combat might be more helpful.

[Shougun]

but it still doesn't solve the problems of delay in commands and the issue with wasted commands it makes.not to mention EA also delay our dps which is kinda bad for us.

maybe if they worked EA to be somehow instant or that the pet cast it every x seconds in combat might be more helpful.

I think you misunderstood me then (I wasn't very clear so probably my fault lol), I meant that for example Egi Assault I or II could be cast during the action of another action. Like you could be mid cast in Ruin and choose to complete a Titan shield and finish the ruin (not interrupted), Egi Assault at no point would interrupt the action of another ability (doesn't trigger GCD either) or cause your character to pause and which ability you used first would be depending on the situation (minor cooldown being there to ensure you don't cast all 4 egi assault in the duration of 1 ruin lol, since I said and mean no delay or interruption whatsoever). Which is why I added I'm not even sure FFXIV can do that... in a technical sense.

You're suggestion that the egi does it themselves gets close to that to be honest, except here you're the one doing the rotation and the commands- vs watching the Egi do it's own thing and it not relating to you (how it used to be, minus contagion it was like "whatever, do your thing"). I just like the theme more that you are the one making the egi do stuff. Egi, burning claw! Would be nice if the assaults had more punch and some niche proficiency option though, at least giving them more punch for better impact (less wet noodle lol).

Like in some games where you can use your trinket in the middle of another action, unstunning yourself or whatever without delay or pause.

[CrimsonGunner]

I think you misunderstood me then, I meant that for example Egi Assault I or II could be cast during the action of another action. Like you could be mid cast in Ruin and choose to complete a Titan shield and finish the ruin (not interrupted), Egi Assault at no point would interrupt the action of another ability (doesn't trigger GCD either) or cause your character to pause and which ability you used first would be depending on the situation (minor cooldown being there to ensure you don't cast all 4 egi assault in the duration of 1 ruin lol, since I said and mean no delay or interruption whatsoever). Which is why I added I'm not even sure FFXIV can do that... in a technical sense.

Like in some games where you can use your trinket in the middle of another action, unstunning yourself or whatever without delay or pause.

i understood that but like i said EA still delay our damage and while it wont interrupt ruin III or miasma cast or outburst, ruin IV is still a problem with those delays and also the ghosting of AE those delays caused or simply not being cast at all are still a major issue that harms our dps.
so simply changing EA so it will not trigger our gcd wont make it better at all.

i understand you like issuing command to the pet but AE must have its command delay issues fixed and if it can't be done then removed and replaced with something else.