5.08 Patch - DPS still not balanced.

[whiskeybravo]

By judging at how much damage a BLM/MNK does on average on these fight. And comparing at how much damage a NIN/SMN does on average on these fight.
Again, it's pretty easy to see with logs that there is a huge difference in damage between these two job duo. And it isn't even a question of player skill, except if you suggest that every ninja player is just worst than every monk player in the game.

All your saying is that, assuming equal levels of play, it's possible. In no way is "equal level of play" between jobs a given fact, however.

[Lastelli]

No offence but it’s even more whinier to have people continuously complain over classes not being perfectly balanced in such way that simply isn’t possible. When BLM was in the dumpster, where were the outcries then?

Either you're suffering from amnesia or you simply weren't using the forums during 4.x. People kept saying that BLM and SAM had to be buffed for the whole expansion...which is why they were continuously buffed until they reached a good place finally in Alphascape. It only took the devs almost two years.

[Misutoraru]

No offence but it’s even more whinier to have people continuously complain over classes not being perfectly balanced in such way that simply isn’t possible. When BLM was in the dumpster, where were the outcries then? You complain about balance but only when you are out of the meta. Down with meta! Play the job because it’s fun and you enjoy the job. All this business of, “but muh numbers” or “I’m not in the meta” is bringing unnecessary strife to a game that should be about fun and sheer enjoyment. What’s whinier is how people are constantly complaining and trying to be greedy. Hell people are still saying NIN didn’t get enough of a buff, SAM didn’t get enough of a buff. WHEN WILL
IT END?

job can be meta but not fun, so as being out of meta but fun
balance and fun can co-exist

[Kitfox]

No offence but it’s even more whinier to have people continuously complain over classes not being perfectly balanced in such way that simply isn’t possible. When BLM was in the dumpster, where were the outcries then? You complain about balance but only when you are out of the meta. Down with meta! Play the job because it’s fun and you enjoy the job. All this business of, “but muh numbers” or “I’m not in the meta” is bringing unnecessary strife to a game that should be about fun and sheer enjoyment. What’s whinier is how people are constantly complaining and trying to be greedy. Hell people are still saying NIN didn’t get enough of a buff, SAM didn’t get enough of a buff. WHEN WILL
IT END?

Nothing annoys me more than people who don't care about balance telling other people to not care about balance. Like dude, I get it. This isn't your thing, but don't go around telling people who care about it that they are whiny brats. Just move along with your day. Most people are not trying to be greedy. We see a problem and care enough about the game that we want to see it fixed. People like you are the reason why things muddy up, people get caught in petty arguments and the overall conversation suffers. You're being an active hindrance to the community for no good reason. Why are you defending bad balance? What are you hoping to achieve by criticizing the feedback? There's plenty of well written posts about the DPS balance being off. It's objectively a bad thing for the community because when people notice how off it is, they start excluding jobs from PF and raid teams. By giving feedback we hope to fix that. By giving feedback, we show that we care about the game.

Again, why are you complaining about "whiners"? You achieve nothing by doing so.

Just because you can't get a clear idea of what people want, doesn't mean the people giving the feedback don't have a clear idea. Not everyone has the same idea either, and that's completely fine. The main point is that there's a real problem, whether you care about it or not, and we're trying to bring attention to it so it can be fixed, as well as come up with ideas that might help solving it. Telling people not to care or trying to hide it won't solve anything. People will notice, the problems will get worse, and people will be unhappy.

It will end when the issue is solved. Simple as that.

[whiskeybravo]

It will end when the issue is solved. Simple as that.

And what if it can't be solved? As long as some jobs have things that other jobs don't, there will always be a comparatively superior arrangement of them.

So what if MNK/BLM is the highest damage comp. That's all you're actually looking for, is it not? You want the fastest kill and the highest damage. Want being the key word. That doesn't mean everybody has to submit to the rankings. That doesn't mean every job has to compete for the highest damage. If one feels obligated to succumb to the community's projection of inadequacy onto certain jobs than it's on them. Nobody disputes that all jobs are viable. The only thing being disputed is that not every job is in the place of claiming they deal the most damage.

I always appreciate your insight and contributions, Lynn. But I have to respectively disagree on the merits of the argument.

[Katie_Kitty]

And what if it can't be solved? As long as some jobs have things that other jobs don't, there will always be a comparatively superior arrangement of them.

So what if MNK/BLM is the highest damage comp. That's all you're actually looking for, is it not? You want the fastest kill and the highest damage. Want being the key word. That doesn't mean everybody has to submit to the rankings. That doesn't mean every job has to compete for the highest damage. If one feels obligated to succumb to the community's projection of inadequacy onto certain jobs than it's on them. Nobody disputes that all jobs are viable. The only thing being disputed is that not every job is in the place of claiming they deal the most damage.

I always appreciate your insight and contributions, Lynn. But I have to respectively disagree on the merits of the argument.

Wow you people really love your strawmen don't you? We're not saying everything has to be perfectly balanced or that everybody's job should do the most damage we're saying the gap is too damn big and it needs to be closed.

Why are you incapable of discussing this in an honest and straight forward way? Instead of addressing the issue you just keep propping up your strawman and attacking that instead.

[Cetonis]

That's a straw man. Nobody expects or asks for perfect balance. Of course there will always be some selection of jobs that are considered optimal on a given fight.

Ideally, the jobs are close enough that fight specifics vary that a little, or close enough that people get into debates about the value of certain features, i.e. mobility or unique defensive utilities, that dictate whether x job is better or y is better.

But even abandoning that ideal, just because balance can't be perfect, doesn't mean it shouldn't be good. "Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good" is a common saying for a reason.

Sure, the definition of good can vary, but there's going to be a curve. It's not like every single player either doesn't care about balance at all, or would only accept perfect balance. Everyone has some point in between, where they'd say that the balance is pretty good. And you can definitely make things good enough to appease darn near all of them.

I'd venture to guess that the most common bar (aside from "so long as stuff can clear") is to want balance to be close enough that hardly anybody would think to exclude a job from PF, or to ask a group member to change jobs, or to ask themselves if they should.

If a player really likes job x and gets really good at it, that should be the best job for them to play. They should not be able to swap to a different job in similar gear, or worse gear, play it worse, and be a bigger benefit to their team in so doing.

And reaching that point does not take perfect balance. It just takes close-enough balance, gaps of maybe a percent or two, plus debatably-reasonable taxes.

Getting that close is very achievable. Maybe if you mix in design goals you can end up debating those, which is fair enough if we're told that's what's going on. But on a baseline do-your-job-SE level, potency bandaids to put production into the right +/- 1% range or so, is incredibly easy. It's trivial for us players to do just using fflogs, so if SE's internal tooling is as good as they claim, it should be equally easy for them.

[SaitoHikari]

And what if it can't be solved? As long as some jobs have things that other jobs don't, there will always be a comparatively superior arrangement of them.

So what if MNK/BLM is the highest damage comp. That's all you're actually looking for, is it not? You want the fastest kill and the highest damage. Want being the key word. That doesn't mean everybody has to submit to the rankings. That doesn't mean every job has to compete for the highest damage. If one feels obligated to succumb to the community's projection of inadequacy onto certain jobs than it's on them. Nobody disputes that all jobs are viable. The only thing being disputed is that not every job is in the place of claiming they deal the most damage.

Yeah, no. Everyone knows that's disingenuous bollocks.

You're projecting personal interest onto the community. The uproar exists for a reason, it's just hard to pin down the causes because most people lack the knowledge and means to adequately explain it clearly.

It is in the interest of the developers to address this, if only for the sake of future-proofing future content. Because if everything remains as is, and we get better gear as the game progresses... What do you think will happen? The gap will widen, and most people arguing for us to just forget about it and move on don't consider that the developers have to pick a certain point to balance future content around. The wider the gap gets, the harder that becomes. Want to balance the next Ultimate under the assumption that 3/4 of the DPS consists of the top five? With the skill level that Ultimate expects of you, a party consisting of 3/4 of the bottom 5 might find it near impossible to clear unless all of the DPS were consistent 90+% people, with zero mistakes afforded. Balancing the next Ultimate at a point that's the other way around basically gives the 3/4 top five comp the ability to make more mistakes.

Maybe people just want a teamwork-oriented game to actually be as balanced as possible! Because the reality is, the moment the balance gets tipped too far one way or another, the community perception can tip it further. You can crow at people to ignore this and stick to their principles all you want, but that is much much easier said than done in such a teamwork-oriented game such as this.

[whiskeybravo]

Lol

This thread is the bandwagon of strawmen complaining about stuff SE already told us they are addressing

But keep beating that horse. Maybe it'll happen faster.

[kajv95]

And what if it can't be solved? As long as some jobs have things that other jobs don't, there will always be a comparatively superior arrangement of them.

So what if MNK/BLM is the highest damage comp. That's all you're actually looking for, is it not? You want the fastest kill and the highest damage. Want being the key word. That doesn't mean everybody has to submit to the rankings. That doesn't mean every job has to compete for the highest damage. If one feels obligated to succumb to the community's projection of inadequacy onto certain jobs then it's on them. Nobody disputes that all jobs are viable. The only thing being disputed is that not every job is in the place of claiming they deal the most damage.

Right now, it's far too noticable that certain jobs are behind, and this doesn't even only come from rankings and logs. As easy as it is to hide behind logs, there are other ways to gauge performances and I find it quite an offense to this community's more inquisitive minds that people are thinking "if only we didn't have tools at our disposal, then everything would be sunshine and rainbows". This situation would still happen, because the gap is too wide for it to be brushed off as "eh, crits happen" and word would get out fast.

The trick is in allowing a superior party to exist but have everything else be close enough that it's negligible. The "lesser" jobs don't want the big boi jobs to have an actual good reason to refuse them. You believe the fault lies with the players, when the game is based around dps races AND provides a way to exclude players on basis of job alone? Do you really believe it's the player's fault when the game actively encourages bringing top DPS? Are the devs truly free of blame when they've funneled people into a situation like this in the first place?

Please, get off the "it's viable so it's fine" horse. There's going to be a myriad of issues once Ultimates roll around and things like these aren't atleast partially fixed. That's when viability will either start to look shaky, or the Ultimates are designed to be easier in dps check because they'll have to be based around being able to clear with lower jobs, which will in turn funnel players into higher DPS jobs, and just because everything is currently able to clear does not mean the balance is good. So, yeah. It's currently viable, but it may not be in the future and we voice concerns over that.

Please remember that we pay for this game monthly, pay a new game price for every expansion, and are highly encouraged to buy additional items from the Mogstation. I believe we have the right to concern ourselves over what we're paying for, especially since we can't see into the future and thus buy things in blind faith.

and is it really so weird that dps players want to deal damage?

Lol

This thread is the bandwagon of strawmen complaining about stuff SE already told us they are addressing

But keep beating that horse. Maybe it'll happen faster.

Except they didn't. Red Mage, for example, has not been mentioned at all. Bards supposedly need their pdps lowered if they are to get some support back, which ignores the cry for a role-wide dps buff completely. Summoners sure got all their problems addressed, huh?