5.08 Patch - DPS still not balanced.

[Aiscence]

Have to be honest, ranged tax doesnt make any sense. We have the mobility so we do the mechanics instead of the party so they gain dps, but as a reward, we should lose dps despite doing more stuff than them ??

[HyoMinPark]

Screw the Savage meta. The people who help "trickle down" that garbage are not worth actually listening to for anything.

Unfortunately, there will always be a meta. There is no way for there not to be. If that is what you are hoping for, you will be disappointed. The high-end will always find the most effective comp, and there will always be people below them who listen and wish to emulate.

People who exclude specific jobs from party comps are either actually pushing the very limits of this game, or they are pretending they can outside of Savage for some reason and are trying to imitate those who are while also having a very crappy attitude to be around.

Pushing the game to its limits is generally why people run meta comps and optimize to the levels the most hardcore 0.1% do.

As for “outside of Savage”—no one cares about dungeon meta. When you talk about meta, you’re talking about Savage and Ultimate. People seem to think that this applies to dungeons, but it doesn’t. The trickle-down I am referencing merely applies to lower-end PF Savage groups attempting to emulate what the higher-end Savage raiders do. Not trickle-down from Savage into things like dungeon content. That’s just silly.

No developer should listen exclusively to either one of those groups.

Then, who should they listen to? Balance should always be done around what jobs are capable of—their max potential. It should always take place within the hardest content in this game, since the easiest content would never require anything close to maximum potential from any job: it only requires the bare minimum. Listening to players who know the ins and outs of jobs, how to push them to their maximum potential, and who have collected data about jobs’ performances seems like the crowd to listen to, in my opinion. Versus a crowd that has none of these, and instead wants to talk about balance with unquantifiable metrics.

5.08 was never, ever promised to be the grand fixes that Samurai or Ninja are in need of, nor was it intended to be the nerfs some of the angrier folks in this community were expecting the current dps kings to get slapped with.

Never implied that 5.08 was meant to be anything else other than what it was. However, it did a poor job of actually balancing much of anythin,g outside of NIN no longer being in the grave: SAM still does less than MNK, and SMN is still getting destroyed by BLM. 5.1 will hopefully bring more balance to some of the roles, as well as gameplay changes for NIN and possibly SMN, but there are still larger balancing issues present: if SMN is buffed considerably in any way, RDM dies. And the physical ranged are still facing their own imbalance issues, which haven’t really been addressed, or even acknowledged, by the development team.

If Samurai want to be king DPS so badly, they should also have to play the same ridiculous keyboard bemani than Nin or Smn do to go along with the huge bursts they get to squirt out just for following a rotation correctly.

I’m sorry, but there is no reason for a job that has utility (MNK) to deal more personal damage and contribute more to rDPS than a job that doesn’t offer any sort of utility within that same role (SAM). Jobs should also not be balanced solely around complexity: otherwise, RDM would never get off the ground. (And I think balancing off of a moderately subjective measure is poor balancing practice anyways.)

The more “selfish” DPS jobs should always deal more personal damage and have slightly higher raid contributions compared to the jobs that bring utility. With it being the other way around, why would one bring the selfish job to an optimized setting over a job that buffs the party? This has been seen numerous times in this game’s past: starting from Creator in Patch 3.4, when DRG/NIN/BRD/MCH absolutely dominated and casters were pushed aside until Patch 4.1 when the developers broke SMN. It took until Alphascape for BLM to finally wiggle its way into speedkills and optimized settings as well.

[Aomine1992]

if SMN is buffed considerably in any way, RDM dies. And the physical ranged are still facing their own imbalance issues, which haven’t really been addressed, or even acknowledged, by the development team

This. As much as I want SMN to be out of this mess it’s in, I think the class I am most afraid for is RDM, I don’t understand SE when it comes to Caster balance. SB SMN was way too strong, and now BLM is way too strong in comparison to its counterparts, I don’t know what SE is going to do but I doubt they fix this issue because while SMN will be most definitely be fixed and buffed in 5.1 I’m sure they will do nothing for RDM which just speaks to their ignorance to how their own game works.

[TaiyouSeishin]

The more “selfish” DPS jobs should always deal more personal damage and have slightly higher raid contributions compared to the jobs that bring utility. With it being the other way around, why would one bring the selfish job to an optimized setting over a job that buffs the party? This has been seen numerous times in this game’s past: starting from Creator in Patch 3.4, when DRG/NIN/BRD/MCH absolutely dominated and casters were pushed aside until Patch 4.1 when the developers broke SMN. It took until Alphascape for BLM to finally wiggle its way into speedkills and optimized settings as well.

Im assuming raid contributions mean rdps? In which case it shouldnt. For classes like NIN and DRG who only have dps enhancing utility, their pdps being lower than a selfish dps makes sense but since all they bring is dps enhancing, their rdps should make up the difference, and even scale a little more. If a DRG does 14k pdps vs SAM 15k and the dragoon brings 500 rdps for its utility, you may as well take two SAMs.

On the opposite, taking two DRG should be less rdps than bringing a SAM +DRG. Because while SAM only brings high pdps, it synergizes more with the dps utility DRG has.

Im not sure about mnks placement in terms of pdps vs rdps. But DRG and NIN while should have lower pdps, if their total rdps doesnt at least beat pdps of the other melee, the utility isnt worth anything.

[Dogempire]

Im assuming raid contributions mean rdps? In which case it shouldnt. For classes like NIN and DRG who only have dps enhancing utility, their pdps being lower than a selfish dps makes sense but since all they bring is dps enhancing, their rdps should make up the difference, and even scale a little more. If a DRG does 14k pdps vs SAM 15k and the dragoon brings 500 rdps for its utility, you may as well take two SAMs.

On the opposite, taking two DRG should be less rdps than bringing a SAM +DRG. Because while SAM only brings high pdps, it synergizes more with the dps utility DRG has.

Im not sure about mnks placement in terms of pdps vs rdps. But DRG and NIN while should have lower pdps, if their total rdps doesnt at least beat pdps of the other melee, the utility isnt worth anything.

Except the difference in that given situation is much smaller than our current gap of 1000+ rdps between the top and bottom half of the dps roster.

Plus you would lose out on LB generation which would bridge that 500 dps gap so that it's closer to 200 between the two, and at that point nobody would be crying too much about 200 dps except in a speedkill setting, of which the game should not be balanced around.

[TaiyouSeishin]

Except the difference in that given situation is much smaller than our current gap of 1000+ rdps between the top and bottom half of the dps roster.

Plus you would lose out on LB generation which would bridge that 500 dps gap so that it's closer to 200 between the two, and at that point nobody would be crying too much about 200 dps except in a speedkill setting, of which the game should not be balanced around.

It was just given as an example. Not to be taken as current status. It was just to illustrate.

And you should not require an lb to close a gap. Also im not sure if it was is actually balanced around the lowest dps melee using lb in mind, and if it is, not sure hownid feel about that. And you left out the point of what i was saying. If a dps increase utility, is taxed more than it provides, then the utility essentially does nothing.

Rdps is not actual dps. A ninja pulling 13k rdps isnt actually pulling 13k, they are pulling closer to 12, the benefit of TA added to it makes it 13. Rdps essentially isnt meant for sam, blm, or mch. Its meant to see the contributions of those who do less dps themselves

[HyperiusUltima]

It was just given as an example. Not to be taken as current status. It was just to illustrate.

And you should not require an lb to close a gap. Also im not sure if it was is actually balanced around the lowest dps melee using lb in mind, and if it is, not sure hownid feel about that. And you left out the point of what i was saying. If a dps increase utility, is taxed more than it provides, then the utility essentially does nothing.

Rdps is not actual dps. A ninja pulling 13k rdps isnt actually pulling 13k, they are pulling closer to 12, the benefit of TA added to it makes it 13. Rdps essentially isnt meant for sam, blm, or mch. Its meant to see the contributions of those who do less dps themselves

Even so, the LB can bridge the gap if you don't take duplicates. However, in our current state doubling up on BLM would literally be a gain compared to the LB Gauge, which presents our issue if you took a look at the thread that showed the numbers regarding difference between duping BLM and the LB Gauge. If duping a job is meta, then there is a major balance issue with the game that needs to be addressed; and this isn't just adjusting a couple jobs, but all jobs.

[Dogempire]

It was just given as an example. Not to be taken as current status. It was just to illustrate.

And you should not require an lb to close a gap. Also im not sure if it was is actually balanced around the lowest dps melee using lb in mind, and if it is, not sure hownid feel about that. And you left out the point of what i was saying. If a dps increase utility, is taxed more than it provides, then the utility essentially does nothing.

Rdps is not actual dps. A ninja pulling 13k rdps isnt actually pulling 13k, they are pulling closer to 12, the benefit of TA added to it makes it 13. Rdps essentially isnt meant for sam, blm, or mch. Its meant to see the contributions of those who do less dps themselves

I'm aware, I'm just saying that at those levels of difference the gap between having a balanced party and having duplicate classes is a lot smaller. There will obviously still be dps differences between classes, however, I'd say that a less than 5% difference is actually pretty healthy since you don't want every class doing exactly the same dps but you still want them to be comparable. The game should reward a healthy diverse party, and the role bonuses and extra lb generation do just that.

Also, raid dps IS actual dps, the dps contributions of a class to other party members is just as valid as the damage you deal yourself, both bring the boss' hp down, only difference is that certain classes don't have rdps contribution tools, and in return said classes do more personal dps.

[IruruCece]

I’m sorry, but there is no reason for a job that has utility (MNK) to deal more personal damage and contribute more to rDPS than a job that doesn’t offer any sort of utility within that same role (SAM). Jobs should also not be balanced solely around complexity: otherwise, RDM would never get off the ground. (And I think balancing off of a moderately subjective measure is poor balancing practice anyways.)

Hard disagree. If complexity is so subjective that it's barely a factor worth considering whatsoever for balancing, then what is the point of mudras or the various OGCDs for SMN? Why even have positionals in general? Because at this point we've reduced "complexity" to busywork for the sake of having it, and two jobs are dealing with more inputs (as part of their identity) for less output than the higher end jobs.

While it sucks to say it, RDM should not be used as an excuse to not address the concerns SMN players have been raising, or any other DPS for that matter. It should still get looked at, it should absolutely get some serious changes to make it more competitive. Should it be looked at sooner? Maybe. Unfortunately, jobs have been left hanging for information and fixes before, but that doesn't mean fixes and changes aren't coming.

Balance should always be done around what jobs are capable of—their max potential.

Most players, myself definitely included, will never see the absolute peak of their job's performance. The people who do are a fraction of the overall player population. While the numbers and hard work are helpful at revealing what issues do currently exist. when those players start saying crap like "even if they buff my Jobs, I won't be happy if another Job is strong," then all they are generating beyond the data is raw sewage.

They can address the current DPS imbalance without nerfs to "those who need it" because there is no one who actually "needs" nerfs. There are, however, plenty of jobs in the game right now that need buffs and mechanical changes. Something isn't synergizing. Something isn't working. Address those things.

Hell, despite the numbers, even Monk has mechanical issues with how it works. If Anatman in the opener was real intention of the developers from the beginning, then it was an extremely bad call. It's not fun to use, and it relies on server ticks we can't really see without a mod. Tornado Kick is back to being situational. Six Sided Star doesn't belong anywhere in any rotation, serving as yet another button to fix our Greased Lightning problems (that we also have Riddle of Earth AND the current Form Shift for).

I am not even slightly opposed to seeing the pure DPS jobs firmly at the top of the heap. But I don't want to face nerfs on top of mechanical issues going unfixed, and the majority of players who are calling for nerfs here aren't even pretending to make that consideration when they throw around "utility" as an excuse.

[HyperiusUltima]

Hard disagree. If complexity is so subjective that it's barely a factor worth considering whatsoever for balancing, then what is the point of mudras or the various OGCDs for SMN? Why even have positionals in general? Because at this point we've reduced "complexity" to busywork for the sake of having it, and two jobs are dealing with more inputs (as part of their identity) for less output than the higher end jobs.

While it sucks to say it, RDM should not be used as an excuse to not address the concerns SMN players have been raising, or any other DPS for that matter. It should still get looked at, it should absolutely get some serious changes to make it more competitive. Should it be looked at sooner? Maybe. Unfortunately, jobs have been left hanging for information and fixes before, but that doesn't mean fixes and changes aren't coming.

Complexity is to make the job interesting or engaging, but the issue we've had since Heavensward is that jobs eventually got too complex to the point that even the newer players had a little struggle here and there on the casual end with certain jobs(namely the jobs that had high APM). Positionals are there to add flavor to the job; and sure, there are arguments out there saying that positionals are detrimental in some fights, but True North's CD is not that long for Melee now compared to back then since it got knocked down to a flat 45s CD with 2 uses to combat this argument with skill level.

As for jobs with more inputs, MCH would like a word with you. MCH still is near SAM in regards to damage, but as Hyomin said the rDPS on top of both MNK and DRG's superior pDPS is allowing them to top without question and create this inane gap we have currently between the top end and bottom end; namely in the 50th percentile. On top of that, they weren't using RDM as an excuse; they were stating how the simplicity of RDM would not allow it to see the light of day in Savage if complexity was a metric they used.

Most players, myself definitely included, will never see the absolute peak of their job's performance. The people who do are a fraction of the overall player population. While the numbers and hard work are helpful at revealing what issues do currently exist. when those players start saying crap like "even if they buff my Jobs, I won't be happy if another Job is strong," then all they are generating beyond the data is raw sewage.

They can address the current DPS imbalance without nerfs to "those who need it" because there is no one who actually "needs" nerfs. There are, however, plenty of jobs in the game right now that need buffs and mechanical changes. Something isn't synergizing. Something isn't working. Address those things.

Hell, despite the numbers, even Monk has mechanical issues with how it works. If Anatman in the opener was real intention of the developers from the beginning, then it was an extremely bad call. It's not fun to use, and it relies on server ticks we can't really see without a mod. Tornado Kick is back to being situational. Six Sided Star doesn't belong anywhere in any rotation, serving as yet another button to fix our Greased Lightning problems (that we also have Riddle of Earth AND the current Form Shift for).

I am not even slightly opposed to seeing the pure DPS jobs firmly at the top of the heap. But I don't want to face nerfs on top of mechanical issues going unfixed, and the majority of players who are calling for nerfs here aren't even pretending to make that consideration when they throw around "utility" as an excuse.

Well, I would want to argue after they lifted the slow-down on Riddle of Fire it's gotten pretty out of hand for MNK in general since it's basically like throwing MNK Raging Strikes for free. People wanted to go faster, so SE listened and lifted it; but I don't think they checked the repercussions of doing so given DRG was already at the top of the heap pre-5.05. If anything, true balance lies at what jobs bring to a raid; whether it be buffs, a damage increase, whatever it takes to get their job done and help the group. Some of these jobs are outliers in this regard since they have one or both things listed:

1) The most damage potential in a given fight.
2) Powerful buffs to "necessitate" their presence in a static group

In this regard, I'm talking about Dragoon mainly. MNK can be composition dependent because of Brotherhood, but running 3 Melee is already an arduous task; hence why people look to BLM's dominance over both the Ranged and Caster Slots due to their substantial DPS output to fill the gaps.

Dragoon in general has been a crutch for statics to lean on ever since inception due to both the damage they do and the rDPS they provide through both Dragon Sight and Battle Litany. Even if they do provide small gains in rDPS, their pDPS was buffed this expansion to make up for the loss of Piercing Resistance Down. The only thing I believe is that they overtuned it pre-5.05 and probably will adjust their numbers in 5.1, but it seems their focus is more on NIN/SAM/SMN due to how both NIN/SMN play and SAM's Shoha being nigh useless on 100% uptime fights for a capstone ability.