Reasonable buff to war

[ForteNightshade]

I holmgang spears of paradise twice in 1s, 2x Rip Currents in 3s, and first Stonecrusher and 2 megaliths for 4s. That's 7 times in 4 fights, compared to my PLD co-tank who uses it HG 5 times in the 4 fights. I could do 3x Holm in 3s but my PLD uses HG on the first so he can have it back for black smokers later. Holmgang has plenty of value, maybe not AS valuable as before, but it's also easier to use now so I'll consider it a wash. It still has recast advantage regardless of whether a particular fight utilizes it.

"Oh but I need to use another CD for Stonecrusher".. And? It's free damage increase to have Vengeance and IR up at the same time. You're complaining about a CD you'd be using anyways because it happens so early in the opener..

And what are your other CDs doing? All three bosses barely do any auto attack damage. While that doesn't make Holmgang crap—nor did I imply it ever was—it does make it less impactful. What made Holmgang stand out is how many busters you could shrug off. That isn't to say it should have stayed that way. Frankly, it was too good in fights like O8S and O12S. But my point is you can't point to it and say how much of an advantage Warrior has now.

Not complaining. I'm pointing out Warrior is the only tank that requires a second CD when the others don't. While Vengeance lines up for the first Stonecrusher, it isn't always up for each one you take. And frankly, it's better used for the auto attacks in lieu of sitting on it afterwards.

I was initially under the impression that WAR didn't benefit from raid buffs as much as the other tanks, but having kept an eye on it for the last few weeks - indeed as a WAR I get more from the group than my PLD does. Maybe it's our particular comp (DRG/MNK/RDM/DNC), but I get around 10% more damage from raid buffs than my PLD does. Crazy, I know. I figure it's mostly Brotherhood tipping the scales since it lines up perfectly with IR. Our DNC was going BRD for the first few weeks of prog, but then switched to DNC because it seemed to be better for the group overall, so I don't really have a comparison for BV.

Yes, it's your comp. PLD gets nothing from MNK and RDM during its Holy Spirit window. You also have the best WAR comp outside of NIN as they all increase flat damage compared to BRD or DRG.

[whiskeybravo]

And what are your other CDs doing? All three bosses barely do any auto attack damage. While that doesn't make Holmgang crap—nor did I imply it ever was—it does make it less impactful. What made Holmgang stand out is how many busters you could shrug off. That isn't to say it should have stayed that way. Frankly, it was too good in fights like O8S and O12S. But my point is you can't point to it and say how much of an advantage Warrior has now.

Not complaining. I'm pointing out Warrior is the only tank that requires a second CD when the others don't. While Vengeance lines up for the first Stonecrusher, it isn't always up for each one you take. And frankly, it's better used for the auto attacks in lieu of sitting on it afterwards.

The other tanks can't get both of those Megaliths because they are exactly 4 mins apart. That frees up CDs to be used elsewhere for both tanks. I spread out my CDs in the opener and we swap at geocrush until Car mechanic, then they're back up for the 2nd stonecrushers which we split. Nothing is wasted in that regard. If it's really that big of a deal then have your other tank take the first hit and Voke to take the 2nd and 3rd hits with Holmgang. There ya go, no longer need 2 CDs for Stonecrusher.

Besides, the reason they changed Holmgang is because it had a significant advantage which contributed to the tank imbalance. So it's a little disingenuous to now say "look WAR doesn't have the advantage anymore".. Yea, that was the point.. But there remain a few spots where it can be advantageous, and we don't know what future fights are going to look like yet either.

Brotherhood is a wars best friend. Straight damage buff on same timer as IR with enough time to land some chaos in it as well. When more than 40% of our damage can fit in brotherhood windows, yes, you get massive amounts or raid buff damage. Remove that mnk and you will fall flat on your face.

The large crit rate buffs just do basically jack. But brother/TA are massive. Its bot thay raid buffs dont help, its that we are very polarized to specific raid buffs in a time when se is conciously reducing the focus on specific team comp synergy, war has strong specific job synergy.

Yea it's mostly Brotherhood and Embolden. I get 50-60 more from those than the PLD, but he gets 30-40 more from Chain and Litany.

[ZaqueXIII]

Dunno if its been said or not but id like to see the warrior have 2 circle AOEs for the combo, I imagine something like a lvl 60 trait that makes mythril tempest our first AOE and then steel cyclone animation is our follow up.(obviously they would have to be tuned for damage) I think its awkward to have to rotate mobs during my aoe combo potentially ruining dps positionals and making it harder to get value from nascent flash without also investing infuriates or inner release

[Izsha]

The other tanks can't get both of those Megaliths because they are exactly 4 mins apart. That frees up CDs to be used elsewhere for both tanks. I spread out my CDs in the opener and we swap at geocrush until Car mechanic, then they're back up for the 2nd stonecrushers which we split. Nothing is wasted in that regard. If it's really that big of a deal then have your other tank take the first hit and Voke to take the 2nd and 3rd hits with Holmgang. There ya go, no longer need 2 CDs for Stonecrusher.

Besides, the reason they changed Holmgang is because it had a significant advantage which contributed to the tank imbalance. So it's a little disingenuous to now say "look WAR doesn't have the advantage anymore".. Yea, that was the point.. But there remain a few spots where it can be advantageous, and we don't know what future fights are going to look like yet either.



Yea it's mostly Brotherhood and Embolden. I get 50-60 more from those than the PLD, but he gets 30-40 more from Chain and Litany.

Yeah this has been my experience. My raid static havent had a mnk for all if stirmblood and ran drg and sch forever. It was pretty depressing how dependant we are on 1 jobs raid buffs while everyone else just kinda yolos with any comp and is fine. I finally have a mnk now, but lost the ninja, but i just wish se would lay off the force crit mechanic so we can be as flexible with raid buffs as everyone else. Especially since job dependant synergies were expressly on the chopping block for shadowbringers but they forgot about war requiring mnk to be good.

[whiskeybravo]

Yeah this has been my experience. My raid static havent had a mnk for all if stirmblood and ran drg and sch forever. It was pretty depressing how dependant we are on 1 jobs raid buffs while everyone else just kinda yolos with any comp and is fine. I finally have a mnk now, but lost the ninja, but i just wish se would lay off the force crit mechanic so we can be as flexible with raid buffs as everyone else. Especially since job dependant synergies were expressly on the chopping block for shadowbringers but they forgot about war requiring mnk to be good.

I don't disagree, I just try to see it from both sides. The auto CDH is a relief on one hand because then you aren't dependent on any comp, on the other hand it limits our gains from some buffs while making others more attractive. My main issue is that it feels like having the CDH feature limited growth we could've otherwise had in it's place.

[Izsha]

I don't disagree, I just try to see it from both sides. The auto CDH is a relief on one hand because then you aren't dependent on any comp, on the other hand it limits our gains from some buffs while making others more attractive. My main issue is that it feels like having the CDH feature limited growth we could've otherwise had in it's place.

I dont really see it as a benefit in anyway. It just polarizes the job. In an potluck comp, war either hits it big with a ninja and mnk, and astro, or looses out with drg, sch, dnc, etc crit buffs. Every other job just kinda is happy with anything. Its the old days of ranged NEEDING a drg to be good. Sure it averages out as some partues have drgs, some dont, but it is very polarized which is the very thing SE is trying to remove by their own admission.

Its just stupid. Also salty because they took the best iteration of war thay existed (4.1) with very rewarding gameplay and dumbed it down into the cleave machine. Then doubled down in ShB with inner chaos to even further reduce the benefit of crit buffs. I mean, wars opener is basically 20 seconds (8 gcds) of 100% crit/dh spam. You know when all those yummy crit buffs are applied? For 20 seconds of that 20 sec window. Maybe you will get a heavy swing in on the end. Whooo..... Its just so damn frustrating to see even more problems created by this terrible design decision still creeping around years after a frustrating rework all because xeno started a QQ train about 'feels bad to have no crits during zerk'. You know what feels bad? Getting no benefit from the majority of raid buffs.

[Shurrikhan]

Yeah... moving around to get overpower to hit everything sucks. Would be okay if you only had to do it once, but mobs move around as things die or as you move to avoid aoe, and having to reposition them to overpower several times a fight is kinda annoying. Should just both be 360 aoe at this point.

Personally, I greatly prefer the cone. It has more reach and is easier to direct.

That said, couldn't they widen the damn thing? They could just use a truncated cone; start the full cone from begin the warrior, allowing it greater width, then cut out the section behind the Warrior. Donut AoEs have already proven that we can draw two shapes per AoE, one for expanse and another as a cut-out. There.

I dont really see [auto-Crits during Berserk/Inner Release] as a benefit in any way. It just polarizes the job.

This. Though, I think that's more of an issue with the Crit stat in general. It still baffles me that they didn't just continue to have Critical Hit only affect Crit chance (not damage) but have excess chance turn into proportionately greater effect (e.g. a 120% chance to Crit where a Crit remains +50% damage would then give +60% crit damage (120% of 50%)).

Just like that, boom, no more Crit buff or Crit stat waste from Auto-crits and the stat no longer starts off expansions as a trap stat (in ShB's case until 3.5k+) or ends them as the god stat. Any of the would-be wasted crit chance acts simply as added crit damage.