(Spoiler) About amaurots downfall

[Iscah]

Darkness is not synonymous with evil in the FFXIV universe. It is more representative of activity and chaos than it is anything inherently evil. If you ask me, it makes quite a bit of sense that the living embodiment of the will of the planet would be aligned toward those things. A planet is a living, breathing thing that changes constantly.

I feel like this could actually be a key element of what happened.

"The will of the star should represent life and activity, so we should base it around the aspect of Darkness," reason the members of the Convocation.

"But wait," says the fourteenth, "is it a good idea for it to be just Darkness? Shouldn't we balance it with an aspect of Light as well?"

The others refuse, the fourteenth leaves and starts working out how to create a counterpart balance that can 'add on' to Zodiark after the initial summoning.

[Alleo]

I was more referring to the unfortunate trend of many a poster around these parts being rather desperate to have her be pure and righteous, justified in all that she does - thus, from their perspective, they would be fond of the idea of the Ancients being the harbingers of their own annihilation so they can argue that what Hydaelyn went on to do was a necessity and not the complete erasure of an entire society and race of people.

No many of us (me included) just dont see a reason right now why we should outright kill her just because some want humanity all alone (even though its mostly is without Ascians doing their things). We dont say that she is 100% completely good but just because she is some kind of primal and has not told us all, does not suddenly make her evil either. So as long as there is nothing in the future story that makes it necessary then no we have the rights to belief in her and to defend her. Especially since (unlike Zodiark) we know of her thoughts which can be seen in the song Answer. We also have a whole bunch of her actions which seems good towards the existing races. Believe what you want since its all just speculation anyway but the story right now still has her in the good camp.

SE has gone out of their way to show that its not all a paradise. They could have easily made us believe otherwise but they went out of their way with speech bubbles and quests that showed that these Ancient beings were quite flawed too. And its at least confirmed by the dungeon itself that the catastrophe was made worse by the Ancients because of their fear. If they somehow also had a hand in starting it is unknown but they at least made it worse. Its also shown that Amaurot did nothing to help until it was at their doorstep (this is also shown in a quest) and it was Ancient ones that summoned Hydealyn. Ancient ones that knew their people, ancient ones that were also powerful and had the knowledge. Ancient ones that lived under the same morality and rules then the Ascians. And yet even some of them decided that enough was enough. It was a part of the Ancients themselves that decided this. Not Hydealyn, not our races. So seemingly they knew more than we do.

[Iscah]

they went out of their way with speech bubbles and quests that showed that these Ancient beings were quite flawed too. And its at least confirmed by the dungeon itself that the catastrophe was made worse by the Ancients because of their fear. If they somehow also had a hand in starting it is unknown but they at least made it worse.

While they do have potential flaws and their society isn't portrayed as perfect, I wouldn't consider this a flaw (ie. a negative character trait). Rather it's an uncontrollable part of their nature that they can't be blamed for.

Their more conscious use of creation magic might be viewed differently, depending on more information we don't have yet, but if just thinking of something terrifying is enough to cause that thing to spontaneously come into true existance, and once they've had the thought it's too late, there's not a great deal they can do about it besides try very hard to not let anyone think of terrifying things.

[Alleo]

While they do have potential flaws and their society isn't portrayed as perfect, I wouldn't consider this a flaw (ie. a negative character trait). Rather it's an uncontrollable part of their nature that they can't be blamed for.

Their more conscious use of creation magic might be viewed differently, depending on more information we don't have yet, but if just thinking of something terrifying is enough to cause that thing to spontaneously come into true existance, and once they've had the thought it's too late, there's not a great deal they can do about it besides try very hard to not let anyone think of terrifying things.

Of course if it was started by something else and they had no chance at all to stop their fears from creating these things that I will say that its 100% not their fault (but I will remain on the point that they in Amaurot still choose to ignore the other cities until its too late). But the side dungeon about that missing monster does imo show that they are simply not handling strange situations that well. When you run through that dungeon the monsters have broken free and seemingly they all run around in pure fear instead of doing something. And these are just the monsters that they probably have created and studied. Why are they running away or hiding in fear? They are really powerful beings shouldnt they just be fine with it? If they often react to something unwanted like that then I can see that they might have made the calamity even worse. And on top of that the NPC that lets you in tries to downplay what happens there too. Like they would not accept that this could have happened. (And released a huge terrible monster into the realm)

Maybe (of course pure speculation) with all their need to conceal themselves, to act as one instead of letting individuality flow they have stopped themselves from getting over such stuff. Maybe they are so used to everything being in control and believing that they thus have everything in control (even though just one small change in thought changes their invention) that any bigger threat just leaves them helpless.

[SaitoHikari]

This thread reminded me of a plot point in ARR that I don’t think has been re-addressed yet.

Remember when Midgardsormr sealed our blessing? We assumed he did it because we were draining too much aether from Hydaelyn, but it’s now looking more and more likely that this wasn’t the case.

I’m beginning to wonder a few things.

1) Consider that the people of Amarout had vast power, but they also didn’t know hardship. They kept kicking the can down the road even after all the signs of an impending threat, then got completely blindsided. I wonder if Midgardsormr’s trial was a way to prevent complacency in us, and force us to adapt and stay vigilant. When we regain the blessing, we came out of the experience much stronger as a result. Perhaps we suffer in order to find strength we didn’t know we had.

As a bonus, the sealing also did cause several Ascians to underestimate us enough to kick us aside, rather than immediately killing us. The first time it happened with Nairbrales with us later killing him, the other Ascians recognized it as a problem, but otherwise continued as they were. The second time around, we ended up regaining our blessing not soon after, and only then did the two Ascians try to kill us, only to end up dying too.

2) The vision of the dark crystal we had. Hydaelyn did speak to us during that, but I wonder if it was actually a memory from the past?

3) Going off my first point, I wonder if Hydaelyn knows more about the threat that ended Amarout. If Hydaelyn’s only purpose was to keep Zodiark in check, there were probably far more efficient ways than to literally split all of reality (and somehow have three Overlords escape with all their memories intact). Maybe it was also an effort to split whatever was responsible for the disaster, to buy time to learn more about what it really was AND try to raise champions that would be better equipped to fight it at a moment’s notice, in case it ever came back.

After all, one could say Amarout was undone by communal inaction. Emet-Selch (or perhaps Amarout society in general) seemed to have a particular disdain for heroes, but it might have been what was needed to combat the threat.

[YianKutku]

As a bonus, the sealing also did cause several Ascians to underestimate us enough to kick us aside, rather than immediately killing us. The first time it happened with Nairbrales with us later killing him, the other Ascians recognized it as a problem, but otherwise continued as they were. The second time around, we ended up regaining our blessing not soon after, and only then did the two Ascians try to kill us, only to end up dying too.

Tangentially, I like that Shadowbringers does explain why the Ascians seemed rather unmoved by Nabriales's death (and previously Emmerololth, and then Mitron and Loghrif). For Sundered Ascians, the reaction to their demise was literally "no worries, more where they came from".

Meanwhile Lahabrea's death was waved aside through the explanation of "well, nobody liked him anyway".

[Avidria]

According to the wiki : "At some point, a mysterious "sound" emanating from the depths of their star caused the Ancients to lose control of their Creation magic, unleashing monsters formed from their subconscious fears. "

Does anyone remember where this was said in game? I vaguely remember something to that effect, but I also remember the catastrophe starting on the other side of the planet. Just want to make sure I haven't missed something.

Also speculation on my part, but they did snatch Archaeotania and bring it directly into the heart of their city - and unless it breaking out is just a product of Emet's illusions going awry, it may well have broken out in Ancient times too. Makes me wonder if that might have really been the start of things going sideways in Amaurot proper. Or a catalyst to make things much worse for them... taking the disease they're trying to cure and (unintentionally) letting it loose where it can cause the most damage.

Could be off base there though lmao

[YianKutku]

Does anyone remember where this was said in game? I vaguely remember something to that effect, but I also remember the catastrophe starting on the other side of the planet. Just want to make sure I haven't missed something.

It was stated in MSQ dialogue, yes. During the part where you first explore Amaurot, and talk with some unnamed Amaurotines about the "current" (to them) situation. The NPC in specific is called "Anxious Amaurotine", during the quest "The End of a World".

Good gracious, child, where is your family? You should not be alone at a time like this. Run along home. Quickly now!

Have you not heard? Though yet confined to the lands across the sea, a terrible phenomenon afflicts our star. They are calling it the "Final Days".

'Tis said it starts suddenly, a cacophonous keening from beneath the earth. The sound distorts all living things within earshot, and wrests from us control of our creation magicks.

Once that happens, all is lost. Fear, pain, despair... every dread impulse is siphoned from our minds and given substance: an eternal fall of fiery rain; an incessant spawning of nightmarish beasts...

None can point to the source of the phenomenon. 'Tis as if the star itself has fallen ill -- as if a force inimical to life now festers and spreads.

'Tis only a matter of time until Amaurot, too, resounds to that discordant squall. You should stay with your loved ones, child... Stay with them...

Please tell me I'm not the only one to immediately think of Lavos.

[Lauront]

Tangentially, I like that Shadowbringers does explain why the Ascians seemed rather unmoved by Nabriales's death (and previously Emmerololth, and then Mitron and Loghrif). For Sundered Ascians, the reaction to their demise was literally "no worries, more where they came from".

Meanwhile Lahabrea's death was waved aside through the explanation of "well, nobody liked him anyway".

Of those, only Nabriales is really confirmed dead. Emmerololth, Mitron and Loghrif's permanent destruction is speculative at this point in time, and Lahabrea, we just assume that Nidhogg's Eyes sufficed to do the trick.

While they do have potential flaws and their society isn't portrayed as perfect, I wouldn't consider this a flaw (ie. a negative character trait). Rather it's an uncontrollable part of their nature that they can't be blamed for.

Their more conscious use of creation magic might be viewed differently, depending on more information we don't have yet, but if just thinking of something terrifying is enough to cause that thing to spontaneously come into true existance, and once they've had the thought it's too late, there's not a great deal they can do about it besides try very hard to not let anyone think of terrifying things.

In my view, whilst there are obviously flaws, some of them are no doubt aspects of their society that strike us as strange but which made sense to them, and therefore it is down to their unfamiliarity that we call them "flaws". I also think that the exercise of Creation magicks was quite a deliberate act and one they had learnt to be responsible and cautious about, in the main. I imagine there was little risk from regular thought running amok in that way, which is why it took that odd sound for matters to go awry, so I agree, you can't really blame them for the course of events given what we know so far.

I feel like this could actually be a key element of what happened.

"The will of the star should represent life and activity, so we should base it around the aspect of Darkness," reason the members of the Convocation.

"But wait," says the fourteenth, "is it a good idea for it to be just Darkness? Shouldn't we balance it with an aspect of Light as well?"

The others refuse, the fourteenth leaves and starts working out how to create a counterpart balance that can 'add on' to Zodiark after the initial summoning.

I think that take on Darkness actually makes quite some sense, and it avoids pushing the Convocation into a nefarious position, or just making it something ad hoc, like the influence on the aether of those monstrosities being present at the time of the summoning. I also like to think that the enervation aspect and their constant warring ended up going too far, with the whole Sundering on the scale it occurred being unintentional; however, Elidibus mentions it and the subsequent memory wipe with regard to it was quite expressly intended - but maybe that was only after things went into overdrive and there was not much else that could be done.

[Avidria]

It was stated in MSQ dialogue, yes. During the part where you first explore Amaurot, and talk with some unnamed Amaurotines about the "current" (to them) situation. The NPC in specific is called "Anxious Amaurotine", during the quest "The End of a World".



Please tell me I'm not the only one to immediately think of Lavos.

Oh snap, can't believe I missed that. I remember talking to him but apparently my brain just decided to chuck that information out the window xD Thanks!

On the whole, a pretty horrifying fate. It does make me wonder about more things, though. Heck, I just have a ton of questions, can't even list them all... very curious to see what answers we get, though.

Also, not familiar with Lavos, but after a skim of the wiki that would certainly be an interesting way to go.

In my view, whilst there are obviously flaws, some of them are no doubt aspects of their society that strike us as strange but which made sense to them, and therefore it is down to their unfamiliarity that we call them "flaws". I also think that the exercise of Creation magicks was quite a deliberate act and one they had learnt to be responsible and cautious about, in the main. I imagine there was little risk from regular thought running amok in that way, which is why it took that odd sound for matters to go awry, so I agree, you can't really blame them for the course of events given what we know so far.

I kind of got the impression they had to be cautious and careful with their creation power out of necessity. They seemed to have strict rules on what 'creations' could or couldn't be shared (likely to keep dangerous things in check), and based on what Hythlodaeus said and on the side quest to test that one Amaurotine's creations, their creations did seem prone to going in unintended directions. Nowhere near the level of sideways that things went when they lost control entirely, though - so I wouldn't blame them (barring some new revelation we haven't seen yet), only say that they seemed almost primed for this type of catastrophe.

A very powerful people, able to bring everything from buildings to lifeforms into existence with thought and personal aether alone, whose stray thought is enough to alter that creation like a stray brush stroke changes a painting? For something like that Sound, their city was just kindling waiting for the right fire.