(Spoiler) About amaurots downfall

[Theodric]

How could Hydaelyn possibly be blamed when Amaurot's fall happened before she was even conceived of, much less existed?

I was more referring to the unfortunate trend of many a poster around these parts being rather desperate to have her be pure and righteous, justified in all that she does - thus, from their perspective, they would be fond of the idea of the Ancients being the harbingers of their own annihilation so they can argue that what Hydaelyn went on to do was a necessity and not the complete erasure of an entire society and race of people.

[YianKutku]

I was more referring to the unfortunate trend of many a poster around these parts being rather desperate to have her be pure and righteous, justified in all that she does - thus, from their perspective, they would be fond of the idea of the Ancients being the harbingers of their own annihilation so they can argue that what Hydaelyn went on to do was a necessity and not the complete erasure of an entire society and race of people.

Who? Which posters specifically?

[Theodric]

Who? Which posters specifically?

I'm not going to list them by name, since that could easily be mistaken as 'naming and shaming'. You're free to agree to disagree with me if you wish to believe that there aren't a lot of posters around these parts siding with Hydaelyn at every possible turn, though.

The lore forum is, after all, a lot more pleasant when it operates under the same rules of debate that the Ancients adhered to!

I do not intend to condemn anybody for it - we all have our favourite factions and characters, after all. I simply hope that the story does not backtrack when it comes to Hydaelyn from this point on. Though she may not be a deity, she's still a 'higher being' of a sort and they tend to be much more interesting when they do not simply act with purity in anything and everything that they do.

[YianKutku]

The lore forum is, after all, a lot more pleasant when it operates under the same rules of debate that the Ancients adhered to!

But you're not operating under the same rules of debate. You're making insinuations and poisoning the rhetorical well, while refusing to outright state your citations and sources.

For example, you said (in another thread) that you would prefer that Hydaelyn and Zodiark are both defeated or neutralized, because you prefer the plot development that has "history in the reins of man". That's a good, strong statement, and while I strongly disagree with it, I would not think to criticize that.

But going "Hydaelyn is definitely evil, because what if such-and-such" is much less strong, and relies too much on unsupported speculation presented as fact. If you present your evidence and interpretations thereof, there will certainly be pushback (from myself or others) for that, with our own evidence and interpretations. Similarly, when I said that I believed the Amaurotines were complacent and that resulted in their undoing, I expect pushback using evidence and sources from the game lore, or reasonable interpretations thereof, and I'm willing to change my mind if I learn a new interpretation that works better.

But simply going "you want the Ancients to be at fault because you want to remove all blame from Hydaelyn" is bad debating form, by positing motivation to the poster, rather than looking at their evidence and interpretation. Especially when I say "why do you think that, what is your evidence", and you decline to engage. That's not debate, but merely avoiding debate.

[Alleo]

I was more referring to the unfortunate trend of many a poster around these parts being rather desperate to have her be pure and righteous, justified in all that she does - thus, from their perspective, they would be fond of the idea of the Ancients being the harbingers of their own annihilation so they can argue that what Hydaelyn went on to do was a necessity and not the complete erasure of an entire society and race of people.

No many of us (me included) just dont see a reason right now why we should outright kill her just because some want humanity all alone (even though its mostly is without Ascians doing their things). We dont say that she is 100% completely good but just because she is some kind of primal and has not told us all, does not suddenly make her evil either. So as long as there is nothing in the future story that makes it necessary then no we have the rights to belief in her and to defend her. Especially since (unlike Zodiark) we know of her thoughts which can be seen in the song Answer. We also have a whole bunch of her actions which seems good towards the existing races. Believe what you want since its all just speculation anyway but the story right now still has her in the good camp.

SE has gone out of their way to show that its not all a paradise. They could have easily made us believe otherwise but they went out of their way with speech bubbles and quests that showed that these Ancient beings were quite flawed too. And its at least confirmed by the dungeon itself that the catastrophe was made worse by the Ancients because of their fear. If they somehow also had a hand in starting it is unknown but they at least made it worse. Its also shown that Amaurot did nothing to help until it was at their doorstep (this is also shown in a quest) and it was Ancient ones that summoned Hydealyn. Ancient ones that knew their people, ancient ones that were also powerful and had the knowledge. Ancient ones that lived under the same morality and rules then the Ascians. And yet even some of them decided that enough was enough. It was a part of the Ancients themselves that decided this. Not Hydealyn, not our races. So seemingly they knew more than we do.

[Iscah]

they went out of their way with speech bubbles and quests that showed that these Ancient beings were quite flawed too. And its at least confirmed by the dungeon itself that the catastrophe was made worse by the Ancients because of their fear. If they somehow also had a hand in starting it is unknown but they at least made it worse.

While they do have potential flaws and their society isn't portrayed as perfect, I wouldn't consider this a flaw (ie. a negative character trait). Rather it's an uncontrollable part of their nature that they can't be blamed for.

Their more conscious use of creation magic might be viewed differently, depending on more information we don't have yet, but if just thinking of something terrifying is enough to cause that thing to spontaneously come into true existance, and once they've had the thought it's too late, there's not a great deal they can do about it besides try very hard to not let anyone think of terrifying things.

[Alleo]

While they do have potential flaws and their society isn't portrayed as perfect, I wouldn't consider this a flaw (ie. a negative character trait). Rather it's an uncontrollable part of their nature that they can't be blamed for.

Their more conscious use of creation magic might be viewed differently, depending on more information we don't have yet, but if just thinking of something terrifying is enough to cause that thing to spontaneously come into true existance, and once they've had the thought it's too late, there's not a great deal they can do about it besides try very hard to not let anyone think of terrifying things.

Of course if it was started by something else and they had no chance at all to stop their fears from creating these things that I will say that its 100% not their fault (but I will remain on the point that they in Amaurot still choose to ignore the other cities until its too late). But the side dungeon about that missing monster does imo show that they are simply not handling strange situations that well. When you run through that dungeon the monsters have broken free and seemingly they all run around in pure fear instead of doing something. And these are just the monsters that they probably have created and studied. Why are they running away or hiding in fear? They are really powerful beings shouldnt they just be fine with it? If they often react to something unwanted like that then I can see that they might have made the calamity even worse. And on top of that the NPC that lets you in tries to downplay what happens there too. Like they would not accept that this could have happened. (And released a huge terrible monster into the realm)

Maybe (of course pure speculation) with all their need to conceal themselves, to act as one instead of letting individuality flow they have stopped themselves from getting over such stuff. Maybe they are so used to everything being in control and believing that they thus have everything in control (even though just one small change in thought changes their invention) that any bigger threat just leaves them helpless.

[QT_Melon]

No many of us (me included) just dont see a reason right now why we should outright kill her just because some want humanity all alone (even though its mostly is without Ascians doing their things).)

Who is saying that she should be outright killed? I mean isn't that a strawman argument?

[Alleo]

Who is saying that she should be outright killed? I mean isn't that a strawman argument?

There are people here, especially on team #NoCrystal that wants her killed already just because she did not tell us the whole truth and because she is a primal and humanity should rule alone over their own destiny. One was the one I quoted. And there has been a few others who also call us out now just because we defend her and still think her as good.

[Daralii]

There are people here, especially on team #NoCrystal that wants her killed already just because she did not tell us the whole truth and because she is a primal and humanity should rule alone over their own destiny. One was the one I quoted. And there has been a few others who also call us out now just because we defend her and still think her as good.

Finally, XIV's story board has its own faction war.