(Spoiler) About amaurots downfall

[Cilia]

The first two sets of sacrifices were required just to summon Zodiark. The Ancients did not, to our knowledge, bribe him with souls as a means of securing his willing cooperation.

The first set of sacrifices (half of the Ancients / Amaurotines) were made to create / summon Zodiark.

The second set of sacrifices (half of those remaining, or 25% of the original population that survived the Sound) were made to rehabilitate the planet, which had been rendered inhospitable (if not uninhabitable) by the chaos created by the Sound.

The third set of (intended) sacrifices (some measure of "planetary life energy," most likely mortals) were set to resurrect that 75% of the Ancients that were sacrificed to Zodiark.

I don't think it's so much as the Ancients bribed him, so much as he needs energy (aether) to do things as all primals do, and the scale on which Zodiark operates far exceeds the primals summoned in contemporary times. According to Emet-Selch he had to "rewrite the laws of reality" as they pertained to the planet, and fixing the planet afterwards would also be no mean feat. The Ancients "fed" him, for lack of a better term, so that Zodiark could do the things they wanted him to do. Despite being "the will of the star," he's still beholden to the wishes and vision of his summoners.

It was when some number of other Ancients grew tired of the sacrifices to Zodiark that they broke off and started the conflict that ended with Hydaelyn sundering and imprisoning Zodiark, shattering the planet into its now-familiar Source and reflections. And that, as they say, is that.

[QT_Melon]

We don't have a lot to go off of yet but I had assumed the root cause was the Ancients' creation magic. Fundamentally it's the same thing as the present's summoning magic, with the difference being that the Ancients had so much aether in their bodies that they could do it themselves. But if they did it so often, even for things like making clothes and buildings, then I'd imagine eventually they'd still start to hurt the world just like summoning too many primals does today. So I assume they put too much strain on the planet.

The one thing I've had issue with on the theory of the creation magic being their downfall is the fact the Ancients were so long lived that they've been apparently doing this for a very long time. I was curious at why the breaking point then vs earlier times in their existence. Was it due to population or what?

Basically I can subscribe behind a specific creation Magic act (or sets of) that did cause the incident, but just the presence of it with an eternal race doesn't quite jive as it being the cause. It just seems we're processing it as a short term thing when their existence spans much longer.


As far as Guardian Force I just figured is was another term for Primal like Eikon just what it was called in Ancient times since it simply makes sense that the term evolved over time. We may see with the story progressing, but I wasn't quick to assume it was going to translate to the same thing - just because they're giving homage from a different FF..

[Ardox]

The one thing I've had issue with on the theory of the creation magic being their downfall is the fact the Ancients were so long lived that they've been apparently doing this for a very long time. I was curious at why the breaking point then vs earlier times in their existence. Was it due to population or what?

There's absolutely nothing in the lore for us to know what the source is, but that reasoning is flawed: wherever the breaking point is you could always ask "Why not earlier?".

[QT_Melon]

There's absolutely nothing in the lore for us to know what the source is, but that reasoning is flawed: wherever the breaking point is you could always ask "Why not earlier?".

Well of course. But that isn't flawed logic. Murphy's Law if something that bad was going to go wrong, it should go wrong right away, otherwise they wouldn't have had to gone through all the trouble in their society if the discovery of their effects were detrimental.

Honestly sticking with "Creation Magics Gone Wild" sounds like a bad video late night TV infomercials are trying to sell you. I definitely want something more interesting than just that in storytelling.

[YianKutku]

Well of course. But that isn't flawed logic. Murphy's Law if something that bad was going to go wrong, it should go wrong right away, otherwise they wouldn't have had to gone through all the trouble in their society if the discovery of their effects were detrimental.

Honestly sticking with "Creation Magics Gone Wild" sounds like a bad video late night TV infomercials are trying to sell you. I definitely want something more interesting than just that in storytelling.

My own reading was that the fall of Amaurot was due to their complacency.

The problems with creation magicks occurred "across the sea", and we see Amaurotines kind of academically debate whether to go help them, or to leave them to their fate. The sheer blase nature of the Amaurotines makes me think that while this particular problem with creation magick had never happened before, other problems that might have been threatening did, and only just happened to be resolved before they went anywhere.

So it seems like the Amaurotines believed that this particular instance was just another hiccup in their everlasting paradise, until suddenly it wasn't, possibly due to snowballing too quickly to be contained. Interestingly, the Convocation apparently were desperate enough to summon Zodiark (and have dissenters leave to later summon Hydaelyn), so they took it seriously. Seriously enough to countenance sacrificing half of their entire race to fix whatever problems were happening "across the sea", while simultaneously keeping the true nature of the threat (and the price involved in solving it) obscured from the general populace.

[MrThinker]

An alternative possibility could have been suggested by the Anyder dungeon, though, and the lore associated with it. Anyder teaches us that a) Lahabrea was a professor of something called "phantomology" which as far as I can tell is creating monsters for science and as a strange art form, and b) that Anyder seemed to have trouble controlling its creations. We know Archaeotania broke out, and a bunch of creatures did as well, none of which seems directly related to the crisis

Archaeotania was a monster begotten by the Final Days in a different city, that the Akademia researchers captured to study and understand what the Final Days actually did. It is through this that Lahabrea came up with the theory that the monsters born of the Final Days came from the ancients deepest subconcious fears, and came up with the idea of Guardian Forces, monsters requiring sacrifice of the entirety of an ancients lifeforce, that were designed specifically to combat the threat of the Final Days.

It can be theorised that the process behind the GF's would later be expanded upon by Lahabrea in his design for Zodiark, and the GF's can be considered 'demi-primals' of a sort (not the summoner-type demis, but just half-baked primals, which maybe primal Enkidu can be shoved under).

[Daralii]

Archaeotania was a monster begotten by the Final Days in a different city, that the Akademia researchers captured to study and understand what the Final Days actually did. It is through this that Lahabrea came up with the theory that the monsters born of the Final Days came from the ancients deepest subconcious fears, and came up with the idea of Guardian Forces, monsters requiring sacrifice of the entirety of an ancients lifeforce, that were designed specifically to combat the threat of the Final Days.

It can be theorised that the process behind the GF's would later be expanded upon by Lahabrea in his design for Zodiark, and the GF's can be considered 'demi-primals' of a sort (not the summoner-type demis, but just half-baked primals, which maybe primal Enkidu can be shoved under).

Just to expand on the other city, it's mentioned in Amaurot(or in the Anyder, I can't remember exactly) that the Sound began in the Far East. It's also stated during the debate sidequest that another city "across the pond" was facing a crisis, though if that was related to the Sound it isn't mentioned.

[MrThinker]

As far as Guardian Force I just figured is was another term for Primal like Eikon just what it was called in Ancient times since it simply makes sense that the term evolved over time. We may see with the story progressing, but I wasn't quick to assume it was going to translate to the same thing - just because they're giving homage from a different FF..

To be fair, I have no idea on the lore of GFs in FFVIII. They just seemed to be monsters that existed there without real explanation.
As for the nature of GFs being like Primals, yes that is right, which is why I called them demi-primals.

There is currently a theory that Eden, due to its nature in FFVIII, is in fact a stronger GF from Amaurot that the Ascians attempted to use in their Rejoining plans. If this idea has merit due to that meta-reasoning, then we might found out more in the future raids in 5.2 or 5.4

[Wyvernheart]

All I'm going to say is Joel 2. Blow ye the trumpet of Zion.

[Theodric]

I do not believe that the Ancients themselves are to blame for the destruction that befell them. From what we saw of their society it was a very peaceful one. The use of creation magic was also regulated and not simply used for pure decadence. In addition, debate was encouraged and decisions were weighed carefully. We also see the sheer scale of the destruction wrought upon the Ancients in the Amaurot dungeon itself. Bringing forth Zodiark was not done on a whim, it was very much presented as a necessity to prevent the Star from fading into nothing.

Having the blame pinned on the Ancients would be a pretty disappointing revelation and I do not doubt that the only reason it is pushed so heavily as a theory around these parts is due to the resident Hydaelyn enthusiasts desperately wanting her to be free of any and all blame, no matter how many characters or factions have to be thrown under the bus in order for such to occur.