Something about the new Ascian lore

[Big-Isaac]

It was about time we got a proper insight into the main villains of this game and I quite enjoyed the way it was handled overall. However there's something that bothers me about it.

Before the level 80 dungeon, Emet Selch gives you a massive "the reason you suck" speech, to which we react by collectively staring at the floor, apparently having zero counter arguments. Emet turns to leave, and it's only then that Alph responds... with a really corny, poorly thought out retort.

What bothers me is that Emet's logic is deeply flawed for a few reasons, yet the party seems to be incapable of seeing it. "Our lives have value, too" is a dumbest possible argument you can offer a guy who - as he explained earlier - doesn't even consider you to be truly "alive"

In particular, there are 2 arguments the characters could have made to establish how hypocritical the Ascians' thinking is

1 Emet kept talking about how the current humanity keeps creating discord and war... even though pretty much every. single. conflict. we've dealt with in this game so far was perpetrated by the Ascians. He's blaming a tree for falling over, while still holding the saw he used to cut it down. There's no telling what the 13 worlds would look like today had the Ascians not kept founding warmongering empires and causing massive calamities. Humanity creating discord and war is a self-fulfilling prophecy only because the Ascians themselves make it so.

2 Somewhat related to the first point, I highly doubt the civilization of the original humanity popped up over night. Odds are they took eons upon eons to develop, meaning there's no reason why this current humanity couldn't reach the same stage of development as well.

[h-alpha]

"Our lives have value, too" is a dumbest possible argument you can offer a guy who - as he explained earlier - doesn't even consider you to be truly "alive"

Therein lies the problem with even trying to use logic against someone like Emet-selch. He doesn't just not consider us to be alive, he considers us to be inferior and imperfect. Broken. Instead of seeing individual people with worth and potential, capable of building a future for themselves, he sees only the fractured souls of his people.

The argument that given enough time, we could eventually build ourselves into something more, something on the level that the Ascians were on, probably wouldn't even register to him as having any ounce of weight. When a glass vase breaks and shatters on the ground, you don't look at the pieces and think "maybe these could potentially have value." You pick them up and throw them away because they're broken pieces of glass (or, in Emet-selch's case, try to glue them together I guess).

It's hypocritical of the Ascians to shift the blame of the problems they created onto us, but in their minds we're already doomed to fail no matter what. We're broken, we can't possibly hope to stand on the level of their people. How can the individual parts be equal to or more than their whole? Could one brush stroke ever possibly hope to be more beautiful than the painting?

I think Alphinaud's remark that we are worth more than he gives us credit for was good, because it at least planted the idea in his head to give us a chance to prove it. What else do you say to someone who considers you one small piece of a divided whole rather than a whole person on your own?

And in the end, he gave us a chance in Amaurot, showed us the fate of his people and tested us, but was still unsatisfied and unconvinced. We had to do no less than kill him in order to prove ourselves.

[Anonymoose]

Emet-Selch at least admits the moral relativism involved, and Alphinaud might be flower and idealistic about it but his core point is that Emet's elitism in deigning to draw the boundaries of what life matters is bad enough, but the one's he's fighting for are already gone.

Over 75% of Amaurot's surviving population was consumed by Zodiark and all he cares about is freeing those souls. If the Great Sundering had never happened, if Hydaelyn had never been summoned, the council would still be trying to sacrifice the life that came after to restore the "better" life that came before.

Emet-Selch's own people didn't unilaterally buy into this logic, this worldview, or this plan. Emet-Selch's own people created Hydaelyn to stop it. Divided and diluted though that life may be, it is happy in being so and it is alive right now; it has every right to take a stand and - if they can manage - bring everything Emet's side stands for tumbling down.

War only works if both sides think they're right.

[Theodric]

The writing was fine, as far as I see it. Emet-Selch made for a very compelling antagonist and the Ascians, as some of us have been saying for years, had goals that were beyond simple villainy for the sake of villainy. Given how impressive their society and powers happened to be it isn't a huge shock that those remaining would wish to see it restored at any cost. Especially when they're practically immortal and have felt the loss and isolation of outliving every single person they used to know and care for.

Hydaelyn being a Primal makes her a major threat and I hope we end up taking both Hydaelyn and Zodiark down at some point in the future. That way the reins of history are placed firmly in the hands of man rather than dictated by false deities.

[kidalutz]

The writing was fine, as far as I see it. Emet-Selch made for a very compelling antagonist and the Ascians, as some of us have been saying for years, had goals that were beyond simple villainy for the sake of villainy. Given how impressive their society and powers happened to be it isn't a huge shock that those remaining would wish to see it restored at any cost. Especially when they're practically immortal and have felt the loss and isolation of outliving every single person they used to know and care for.

Hydaelyn being a Primal makes her a major threat and I hope we end up taking both Hydaelyn and Zodiark down at some point in the future. That way the reins of history are placed firmly in the hands of man rather than dictated by false deities.

I think you inhaled to much of the Ascian philosophy and mixed it with an absolutist point of view without knowing the other sides story.Until thats known your judgment and logic will remain clouded.

[Absimiliard]

I think you inhaled to much of the Ascian philosophy and mixed it with an absolutist point of view without knowing the other sides story.Until thats known your judgment and logic will remain clouded.

Is it clouded, though? This is probably what SE wanted. There is enough moral relativism at play to really get the proverbial wheel turning. Currently extant races just want to survive, the Ascians want to save their own people, and Zodiark and Hydaelyn are basically just two sides of the same coin. We are to Ascians as ants are to us so it's really not hard to understand why they would have such a low opinion of humanity. After all, we don't bat an eyelash when we get rid of an ant colony that's been impeding us in some way.

What we do know is that Hydaelyn was not necessarily right in what she did. Her act of genocide was every bit as vile and savage as the one the Ascians intended to perpetrate to bring back those that sacrificed themselves to save their world. It could potentially be much a much worse act than it currently appears if it turns out that evidence indicating Zodiark's creations to have never been sapient in the first place turns out to be completely accurate.

[Kokomi]

This is probably what SE wanted. There is enough moral relativism at play to really get the proverbial wheel turning. Currently extant races just want to survive, the Ascians want to save their own people, and Zodiark and Hydaelyn are basically just two sides of the same coin.

Moral relativism = there is no universal moral truth, whether something is right or wrong depends only on your culture or time period. I personally think that's a ridiculous stance to take, as some things are clearly, unequivocally wrong.

If only one side can win while the other gets destroyed, no, I don't want both sides to have equally compelling reasons for what they're doing. That's tragedy. I'd prefer it if the heroes were doing the right thing after all. But also that the Ascians and Emet get proper closure.

What we do know is that Hydaelyn was not necessarily right in what she did. Her act of genocide was every bit as vile and savage as the one the Ascians intended to perpetrate to bring back those that sacrificed themselves to save their world.

Agreed that Sundering is genocide if it was done unwillingly. We still don't know what exactly happened back then, though.

[Absimiliard]

Moral relativism = there is no universal moral truth, whether something is right or wrong depends only on your culture or time period. I personally think that's a ridiculous stance to take, as some things are clearly, unequivocally wrong.

If only one side can win while the other gets destroyed, no, I don't want both sides to have equally compelling reasons for what they're doing. That's tragedy. I'd prefer it if the heroes were doing the right thing after all. But also that the Ascians and Emet get proper closure.

Therein lies the conundrum. It's becoming increasingly apparent that this is may no longer be the matter of good vs. evil that some people would like for it to be, and I personally hope SE continues the course on this. I find the story much more compelling now that I know the Ascians may have had a good reason for what they were trying to do. There are times when tragedy is preferable to a very cut and dry "you're wrong, we're right" kind of story. I will find the end of ShB much more interesting if we do indeed find that Hydaelyn and her summoners are just as guilty as Emet-Selch and his ilk.

All that said, I do agree that certain things are unequivocally wrong - from our perspective. I know it's a common trope for alien races to inexplicably adhere (sometimes loosely) to human standards, but we've little reason to believe this would actually be the case. Our morals are shaped by our environment. The Ascians are definitely alien in mindset, physiology, and sheer power, so it's pretty easy for me to imagine their moral standards are not the same as ours. That's not to say they haven't been warped by their ages of sorrow - Emet-Selch himself makes it readily apparent that they have.

[kidalutz]

Is it clouded, though? This is probably what SE wanted. There is enough moral relativism at play to really get the proverbial wheel turning. Currently extant races just want to survive, the Ascians want to save their own people, and Zodiark and Hydaelyn are basically just two sides of the same coin. We are to Ascians as ants are to us so it's really not hard to understand why they would have such a low opinion of humanity. After all, we don't bat an eyelash when we get rid of an ant colony that's been impeding us in some way.

What we do know is that Hydaelyn was not necessarily right in what she did. Her act of genocide was every bit as vile and savage as the one the Ascians intended to perpetrate to bring back those that sacrificed themselves to save their world. It could potentially be much a much worse act than it currently appears if it turns out that evidence indicating Zodiark's creations to have never been sapient in the first place turns out to be completely accurate.

again dont have the whole story we just have half the story.

[Anonymoose]

The core question remains: Can we?

If the coup de grace to the Will of the Star sundered not only Him, but the world itself, into fourteen pieces, can we kill the current Will of the Star and keep the Lifestream as we know it? Would you seal the death warrant of mortal life in the terms we've fought for it all along just to spite Hydaelyn's history?

Perhaps this is a result of my bias - while I've remained open to the "kill all the gods with the power of friendship" route, declaring for #TeamHydaelyn as a player going through the story has been simply more fun, the same way it's been more fun to doubt Gaius's death or accept the Twelve are probably imaginary or poorly remembered Warriors of Light (Perhaps they were Hydaelyn's summoners!). As a result, "Kill Crystal Mom" is often my last resort while She continues to profess that She has our backs, loves Her children, and - above all - has proven time and time again for 12,000 years that if no one is rocking the boat, She goes to sleep and history belongs to man.

First things first, I want to see that She can be excised from the Lifestream and nothing meaningful will change for the inheritors of the planet.

If we can't guarantee that, it's not even on my table.