So, can we just ban damage meters already.

[Andevom]

I think Construct 7 is a perfect example of the necessity of enrage mechanics. That fight can take upwards of twenty minutes of pure torture if people aren't actually paying attention. I still remember when that raid first dropped and almost every run was like that - just one arduous grind where bad players got the carry while every rez-capable role was working their tail off to get people up. It's easier /now/ but christ on a crack an enrage timer would have made that fight so much more manageable. An enrage timer isn't just punishment for bad DPS. It's a chance to stop, reset, and think over what's going wrong in a fight.

I disagree in that scenario. Enrage timer on that would've been frustrating. Think of how it'd be if you're three fights into your raid, and your group just can't get it done before enrage. Would you really want to drop and go through it all again? You've got 23 other players to worry about there, it's a totally different beast from 8 player content.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

I disagree in that scenario. Enrage timer on that would've been frustrating. Think of how it'd be if you're three fights into your raid, and your group just can't get it done before enrage. Would you really want to drop and go through it all again? You've got 23 other players to worry about there, it's a totally different beast from 8 player content.

Well, if those 23 other people were forced to actually look up guides and get better the playerbase as a whole would benefit.

[HyoMinPark]

I disagree in that scenario. Enrage timer on that would've been frustrating. Think of how it'd be if you're three fights into your raid, and your group just can't get it done before enrage. Would you really want to drop and go through it all again? You've got 23 other players to worry about there, it's a totally different beast from 8 player content.

On the other hand, it's equally frustrating to be one of those 24 stuck in a 20-minute war of attrition because people aren't punished for repeated deaths and mechanical failures.

[Andevom]

On the other hand, it's equally frustrating to be one of those 24 stuck in a 20-minute war of attrition because people aren't punished for repeated deaths and mechanical failures.

I'd rather sit through the 20 minutes *once* than have to reset the fight over and over with a chance of us not being able to finish the raid. Not against enrage timers for the content they exist in, just wouldn't be enthusiastic about introducing them into this kind of content. DPS check phases exist in every one of the Ivalice raids, so the punishment for failing mechanics is already in place, just not as severe.

[HyoMinPark]

I'd rather sit through the 20 minutes *once* than have to reset the fight over and over with a chance of us not being able to finish the raid. Not against enrage timers for the content they exist in, just wouldn't be enthusiastic about introducing them into this kind of content. DPS check phases exist in every one of the Ivalice raids, so the punishment for failing mechanics is already in place, just not as severe.

I’d rather have more enrage mechanics at level cap so that people learn they can’t just faceroll and war of attrition the content.

If Construct 7 had a 10m enrage and you cleared him on the second pull, you would have actually spent less time starting the fight over and trying again than you would have in the 20m pull you described in your initial post.

[Andevom]

I’d rather have more enrage mechanics at level cap so that people learn they can’t just faceroll and war of attrition the content.

If Construct 7 had a 10m enrage and you cleared him on the second pull, you would have actually spent less time starting the fight over and trying again than you would have in the 20m pull you described in your initial post.

My initial post didn't mention the 20 minute pull (I don't think I ever experienced it lasting that long personally), but rather the post I was responding to did.

And yes, in ideal circumstances, it'd be much faster. Realistically though, is the player base really going to take consistent failure at a 24 player raid as an indication that they need to get better? No, they're going to say the devs messed up and made it too hard. The threads that appeared here when Weeping City came out give a good idea of how well this would be received.

I understand where you're coming from and the desire for the player base to work towards improving their performance, and I don't fundamentally disagree with that sentiment. I would say we have content for that. I think of the 24 player raids as a stepping stone towards trying out harder things, so I expect them to be a little more forgiving than a raid or EX trial, but harder than a dungeon. The rewards obtained from them tend to reflect that.

[ForteNightshade]

I'd rather sit through the 20 minutes *once* than have to reset the fight over and over with a chance of us not being able to finish the raid. Not against enrage timers for the content they exist in, just wouldn't be enthusiastic about introducing them into this kind of content. DPS check phases exist in every one of the Ivalice raids, so the punishment for failing mechanics is already in place, just not as severe.

They are less severe, they're downright trivial. Only just this week, I had an Orbonne run with just twenty people; at least four died during adds. We still made the DPS check, albeit just barely. That's essentially a full Alliance worth of players and it's still passable. With regards to Weeping City. People complained because the dev team has a persistence for caving in. Ironically, they didn't for Weeping, Nidhogg and even Shinryu later on. Eventually, people stopped whining when they knew it wasn't going to change.

While I do not think 24 mans, trials and the like should be insanely hard or any such thing. I don't think demanding people be halfway decent is asking too much here. In fact, Death Wing has an enrage. It worked just fine.

Sad truth being that those players probably don't know they are pushing low numbers.

They sheer amount of people I've seen absolutely shocked at this damage when they ask about parsers really highlights this.