So, can we just ban damage meters already.

[Imbrium]

"Even if it was not the intention, a penalty may be imposed if the end result was that another person was hurt or obstructed."

This is also assuming the GM's enforcement of these rules are consistent. And even with that GM ensuring there won't be penalties for constructive criticism, I doubt many players would want to risk a warning on their account when they could easily just vote kick without saying a word.

If the players are that concerned with GMs being inconsistent and biased they should be calling for GM reform and training, but I'm still just seeing complaints about the rules here.

Which is odd, because people were arguing that kicking could be reported for breaking the ToS as well if a GM wanted to pursue it in that thread. I still see players getting the boot for everything from not pulling enough, to not dpsing enough, to not talking enough. We don't seem to have a problem with that form of self-expression.

What's the difference here? If a player feels wronged by a kick they can report it just as easily as text. In theory we'd be seeing less kicking if players were that concerned with waffling moderators.

[Daibunnie]

If the players are that concerned with GMs being inconsistent and biased they should be calling for GM reform and training, but I'm still just seeing complaints about the rules here.

Which is odd, because people were arguing that kicking could be reported for breaking the ToS as well if a GM wanted to pursue it in that thread. I still see players getting the boot for everything from not pulling enough, to not dpsing enough, to not talking enough. We don't seem to have a problem with that form of self-expression.

What's the difference here? If a player feels wronged by a kick they can report it just as easily as text. In theory we'd be seeing less kicking if players were that concerned with waffling moderators.

Because expecting the GM's to reform and be given new training is somewhat unrealistic, especially when its in the case of judging a conversation involving criticism of another player. The rules/tos are what encompasses player behavior and interaction and can change depending on the playerbase.

If vote kicking is against the tos, why is it an ingame feature? Some can and will abuse it yes, just like any other feature in the game. All the reasons you listed could easily be taken as "difference in playstyle" as a reason for kicking, and I have yet to see anyone actually get a penalty for it.

The major difference in just plain kicking is the reason for the kick. This is where most people will just put "difference in playstyle" and in most cases, the GM will likely dismiss the kicked player's report.

[Imbrium]

Because expecting the GM's to reform and be given new training is somewhat unrealistic, especially when its in the case of judging a conversation involving criticism of another player. The rules/tos are what encompasses player behavior and interaction and can change depending on the playerbase.

If vote kicking is against the tos, why is it an ingame feature? Some can and will abuse it yes, just like any other feature in the game. All the reasons you listed could easily be taken as "difference in playstyle" as a reason for kicking, and I have yet to see anyone actually get a penalty for it.

The major difference in just plain kicking is the reason for the kick. This is where most people will just put "difference in playstyle" and in most cases, the GM will likely dismiss the kicked player's report.

But your feeling safe about kicking just makes me believe people are being all the more silly about GMs and 'if a player feels offended' arguments then. If the GMs are able to apply logic to vote kick situations, they will apply that same logic to other areas of reporting.

They are either consistent in their job, or they are not. Which is it?

[Granyala]

But your feeling safe about kicking just makes me believe people are being all the more silly about GMs and 'if a player feels offended' arguments then. If the GMs are able to apply logic to vote kick situations, they will apply that same logic to other areas of reporting.

They are either consistent in their job, or they are not. Which is it?

They aren't consistent. They never are, never will be.
I know it from WoW. It makes a HUGE difference what GM you get if the case isn't clear cut.

Also, if a player is kicked, all they do is assess whether there was flaming involved. You never get banned over the kick itself.
ToS talks about "manipulation of the votekick" not kicking itself.

An example would be a guild group of 7 kicking 1 random so they can attempt to replace him with an 8th guild member. I've never seen that happen because you cannot reliably recruit specific replacements in this game.

But why so many tanks seem allergic to them is a worthy question, which pre-dates shadowbringers.

Simple: they are incompetent as players. Similar to healers that tunnel vision on DPS or DPS that tunnel vision and ignore mechanics.

There I said it, now go report and ban me. *chuckles*

[Imbrium]

They aren't consistent. They never are, never will be.
I know it from WoW. It makes a HUGE difference what GM you get if the case isn't clear cut.

Also, if a player is kicked, all they do is assess whether there was flaming involved. You never get banned over the kick itself.
ToS talks about "manipulation of the votekick" not kicking itself.

An example would be a guild group of 7 kicking 1 random so they can attempt to replace him with an 8th guild member. I've never seen that happen because you cannot reliably recruit specific replacements in this game.


Simple: they are incompetent as players. Similar to healers that tunnel vision on DPS or DPS that tunnel vision and ignore mechanics.

There I said it, now go report and ban me. *chuckles*

Then it seems you have a problem with the mods in WoW, not FF14? I've never played WoW, so I don't know what the mods are like there. I know I haven't had a negative experience with ones here so far, and I haven't encountered anyone in game who was randomly picked on by one.

From the reddit post:

"Regarding the new prohibited behavior, we would like to inform you that you are more than welcome to give advice to other players, or are obviously allowed to disagree with another player.

However, those rules are a reminder so you don't forget to be considerate or understanding when talking to each other. In other words, our new policy aims to create a more friendly atmosphere between our players..."

It goes on to say if someone reports you for the above? And you were just offering constructive criticism, so says ye mods, you will not get a strike.

I have offered constructive criticism often in game. If I see a player that might benefit from it and I have the time, I type. I have never once been approached by a mod about it. That is a lot of dungeons for me to be yapping and possibly offending someone.

And not one visit. It is at the point where you have to ask yourself, who is actually worried here? I know I'm not. Friendly, helpful people are not. Those that can carry on conversations like decent human beings should not be, they're fine too.

Some that are decent human beings have become scared with the negative propaganda, but that's it. This has been blown out of proportion.

[Granyala]

Then it seems you have a problem with the mods in WoW, not FF14? I've never played WoW, so I don't know what the mods are like there.

In 10 years of WoW I've seen exactly 1 GM and spoken to three. Al Instances occurred because of some ingame bug that needed resolving.
I've never been approached due to my conduct because I know how to behave myself. In fact I kicked many an abusive player b/c I have 0 tolerance for insults.

I've read a lot from friends and forums to know that GM responses can vary rather wildly if the case is not explicitly stated in the rules because GMs do get to make judgment calls. Not on sth. like a permanent ban, that one has to be reviewed by multiple persons but for the first infractions they have leeway.

In FF-XIV I've never seen or spoken to one. I find it hard to believe that they would act on constructive criticism too but with the way the rules are stated I just don't find any security in them. Decent conversationalist or not I feel uncomfortable not knowing where the line is, so I err on the side of caution and prefer not to say anything and let the bad players figure it out by themselves (I see no need to kick them from dungeons, stuff dies either way it merely takes a bit longer).

[Daibunnie]

But your feeling safe about kicking just makes me believe people are being all the more silly about GMs and 'if a player feels offended' arguments then. If the GMs are able to apply logic to vote kick situations, they will apply that same logic to other areas of reporting.

They are either consistent in their job, or they are not. Which is it?

It's more of being paranoid over the already vague rules. I've read over some of the posts here, and several people seemed to have silently kicked as well instead of going along to help the problematic players that might get them reported instead. So either they weren't reported for it or they were and the GM that looked over the reported decided the kick was valid. Of course, this is all an assumption, but I think its reasonable to think that each GM will handle those specific reports differently and maybe sometimes incorrectly or unfairly.

Combining your recent posts, and especially this one, you have effectively said the following:
-When I tell someone they are playing bad, they can report me, and I don’t trust the GMs to deal with it appropriately, so I kick them instead.
-I’m comfortable kicking people because even if they complain, I know I can give a good reason to the GM which will make them see it as ok.
You effectively are saying you trust the GMs when you have a complaint about someone, but you don’t trust the GMS when the complaint is against you. Hmmmmmm

Context in each report and reason for kicking matters here. Why should someone take the risk at "offending" another player and receive a warning on their account when it's very easy to just dismiss that player instead for "gameplay differences?" Sure, they might get reported for the kick regardless, but at that point, the reason for the kick is validated and within the tos.

For disclaimers, I haven't started a vote dismiss or voted intentionally so far.

[Forever_Learning]

No. The tanks that don’t utilize their cooldowns are bad players.

Unfortunately, people are bad.

Simple: they are incompetent as players. Similar to healers that tunnel vision on DPS or DPS that tunnel vision and ignore mechanics.

Simply saying they are bad players is a shallow and insufficient response.

A better question is why are they bad players that are so focused on their DPS

The common denominator to all of these players is their over focus on DPS, why?

I argue it's due to the influence of things like parses, because people want to rank, and they want to beat others, and where they place on FFlogs.

Am I saying something controversial if I say that people will even alter how a particular fight is done in order to increase their ranking on FFlogs?

It trickles down, it trickles down to the average player that just has a parse and feel satisfied they are the top DPS in their particular group.

I understand how this mentality develops because I had it when I played a Mage in WoW, and understood how the parser was impacting me.

I don't seriously believe I'm the only person to have experienced the psychological impact of the parser, which is why many choose to avoid them outright.

Context in each report and reason for kicking matters here. Why should someone take the risk at "offending" another player and receive a warning on their account when it's very easy to just dismiss that player instead for "gameplay differences?" Sure, they might get reported for the kick regardless, but at that point, the reason for the kick is validated and within the tos.

All I'm saying is people have a right to criticize in a polite way, they have the right to kick, and they have the right to report when they feel they have been harassed. People are going to be people, as someone earlier said, and it's up to the GM to decide how to handle each case, and more generally, how strongly they want to force it.

[HyoMinPark]

Simply saying they are bad players is a shallow and insufficient response.

A better question is why are they bad players that are so focused on their DPS

How do you know that the reason they aren’t pressing cooldowns is because they’re “so focused on their DPS”. You’re providing an equally insufficient response here because you aren’t offering any proof aside from your personal conjecture. At least my saying “they’re bad players” has some grain of truth, because tanks being allergic to CDs predates any sort of focus on tank DPS, which wasn’t a thing until Gordias in HW. Before Gordias, tanks were always in tank stance playing it safe—there was no optimizing of tank damage.

The focus at the high-end is on tank damage now because every other part of their role (enmity, defenses) has been made trivial: ShB tank stance is a joke in terms of its enmity generation; fights are scripted, so you always know when and where you will use which cooldowns. Cooldowns are mapped throughout a fight.

The common denominator to all of these players is their over focus on DPS, why?

Source that this is the common denominator?

I argue it's due to the influence of things like parses, because people want to rank, and they want to beat others, and where they place on FFlogs.

High-purple and orange ranking tanks know how to use their cooldowns. Because they realize if they die, so does their parse. You’d have an argument if we were discussing pre-5.0 tank stance, but we’re discussing defensive cooldowns. The tanks you are describing are not ranking high-purple and orange—because they tend to die to the first buster they take, and their death means the death of any parse/rank they were hoping to achieve.

FFLogs are irrelevant for everything outside of Savage/Ultimate anyways—and let me assure you that the tanks that are worth any sort of high rank don’t suffer from an allergy to CDs.

Am I saying something controversial if I say that people will even alter how a particular fight is done in order to increase their ranking on FFlogs?

Alter the encounter how? Be specific here. Because, right now, the only thing you’re really being is vague.

It trickles down, it trickles down to the average player that just has a parse and feel satisfied they are the top DPS in their particular group.

Even if this trickles down and what you’re saying is correct, that still doesn’t make what I said incorrect. Tanks that won’t use their cooldowns are bad players. There are no if’s, and’s, or but’s about this. No matter how much you try to argue that this is the fault of parsers, which you can’t really prove.

[ForteNightshade]

Simply saying they are bad players is a shallow and insufficient response.

A better question is why are they bad players that are so focused on their DPS

The common denominator to all of these players is their over focus on DPS, why?

I argue it's due to the influence of things like parses, because people want to rank, and they want to beat others, and where they place on FFlogs.

Am I saying something controversial if I say that people will even alter how a particular fight is done in order to increase their ranking on FFlogs?

It trickles down, it trickles down to the average player that just has a parse and feel satisfied they are the top DPS in their particular group.

I understand how this mentality develops because I had it when I played a Mage in WoW, and understood how the parser was impacting me.

I don't seriously believe I'm the only person to have experienced the psychological impact of the parser, which is why many choose to avoid them outright.

Because Shadowbringers made tanks into pseudo-DPS. There is literally nothing else for them to focus on. Defensive cooldowns have zero impact on your damage. Not pressing Vengeance for a giant pull or tank buster just means you're an idiot. It doesn't mean you're focusing on your DPS. Hell, Vengeance gives you DPS, albeit minor. So not pressing it is a DPS loss. You are insisting on a correlation between poor CD management and FFlogs when there isn't one. Worse even, it makes no sense. A tank not using their CDs is a dead tank, which means good bye to their parse.

Put simply, what you're trying to insinuate just doesn't happen. The "mentality" is people are bad and this game does very little to discourage that behavior.